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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:58 pm
  

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I'm sure this has been asked but can Sword Chi be used with other weapons such as daggers or knives?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:28 am
  

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Knight

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I don't think so. Mystic China page 160 "it's impossible to do any of the Sword Chi Techniques without a sword that is known and named by the character"

The only ambiguous language I can find is later when 'weapon' is used instead: "Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly, without any other preparation".

I'm not sure why Wujcik did that since it's more efficient to write sword (5 chars) than weapon (6 chars) except to avoid sounding repetetive. I don't think it would necessarily counteract the first statement.

The 6th paragraph introduces cause to speculate though:
Quote:
Also, if facing a sword or other weapon that's filled with Chi from another wielder using Sword Chi Awareness, or an object that's been filled with Chi by Chi Mastery or Chi Magic, or an artifact filled with a Chi-using spirit, the character...


There's possibly a couple ways to read that. The first appears to imply that Wujcik wrote it with the intent of being able to fill other weapons besides swords with chi using the ability. But the context of using the ability might actually be the facer, not the other wielder. Maybe some vocab expert could help? I'm looking at it like this:

(Also, if facing) + (ASOOWTFWCFAW) + (using Sword Chi Awareness)
v
(Also, if facing) + ((ASOOWTFWCFAWUSCA)

I'm not sure if it is re-establishing that you need to be using SCA to avoid parry/dodge penalties, or if using SCA is already being assumed and instead it is telling us that another person may be using the ability and avoid penalties when fighting them.

If a GM rules swords-only based on the clear early statement and ignores the implications of the later one, there are some other options to enhance weapons hinted at in the above quote box.

1. an object that's been filled with Chi by Chi Mastery: page 154 the Advanced P/N ability "Fill Object with Chi", mentions daggers or arrows.
2. an object that's been filled with Chi by Chi Magic: page 75 the level 2 spell Fill Object with Chi mentions daggers or arrows or bullets.
3. similar to the above, page 84 has the 6th level spell Transmute Object Into Chi

4. Artifact filled with a Chi-using spirit: this took some more digging but I believe using the 9th level spell Entice Disembodied Entity (page 88) to attract a spirit (within 1000 feet) an item, then using the 11th level spell Draw Chi Entity Trap (page 92) to trap it. While the examples given are boulder/stove/engine-block, I don't see why you couldn't trap it inside a weapon too, to permanently empower that weapon to harm chi beings.

I don't know if I buy the 'no practical way to escape unless released' though. The CET may trap them but it doesn't say anything about stopping them from using their powers. If you trapped a Po Chien (page 135) it might be able to use its natural abilities... I'm not sure though because none of them have a listed range and I'm not sure if 'touch' would qualify if they are trapped in the object. That wouldn't necessarily mean they ARE the object so I don't know if they could Bio-Manipulation Pain you for touching a bolder they're in or not.

Trapping a Quicksilver Monkey (page 140) or a Lead Leopard (page 142) or an Infernal (page 143) could be very dangerous, since they have all negative chi abilities they could:

1) launch Negative Chi Attacks if you got within 40 feet
2) One Finger Chi if you got within 30 feet

For all I know they could even OFC to try and destroy the item you imprisoned them in. It doesn't say but one would assume that utterly reducing their jail to rubble would break free any imprisoned chi entities?

Luckily the monkeys don't have Death Blow so they can't use Fist Gesture. Not that they'd need it... with a minimum of 36 chi, a monkey can launch a TK attack doing 108 damage which only has a 1/20 chance of missing (+3 to strike) unless of course you apply the 8+ to strike for ranged combat from other systems... You can't parry/dodge it but I guess if you kept the item in a dark room the -8 to strike for blindness could help. Rolling with impact can cut it to 54 damage but that's still pretty deadly.

Leopards as 12th level Chi Hsuan have a Death Blow on 19/20 from 8th level so they CAN use Fist Gesture. They have 4 atemis including advanced (technically I think that should be 2 normal and 2 either) which means they can possible do a Long Distance Dim Mak attack if you come within 100 feet.

I'm not sure though since you need to be "in clear sight" and if you're trapped inside an object you may no longer have a sense of sight and be considered blind -8 or -10 by default. "Sight" can be a vague concept though, it may not refer to eyes and light waves.

The problem with leapards is their 'full range of psionic abilities' (presumably this means all of them, like special power 2 on page 144 for Infernals) might allow them to Astral Project... or if not that, then maybe 'Psychic Omni Sight' or something else which would allow them to see someone to target them with a Long Distance Dim Mak, and maybe even attack opponents further than 100 feet away. I don't really know since the GM might rule that either of these qualify as 'escaping' and disallow it.

Something like Remote Viewing could probably work through, since that doesn't actually involve projecting your consciousness outside your body in the same way.

Speaking of special infernal powers, the 1 in 120 ordiinaries (1 in 36 horned ushers, 1 in 18 overlords) who have ALL chi magic could probably cause some problems. I don't know how magic works when you have 0 PPE. Its simpler with the 1 in 18 normals, 1 in 9 ushers and 1 in 6 overlords who 25 to 75. Demons do have 81 to 111 chi which "Convert Chi to PPE" could be changed into 12 to 17 PPE.

Mind Walk on page 84 is sadly 18... though I'm not sure if it would work anyway or if the Chi Entity Trap would prevent it. I'm not even sure if entities of pure chi could use this spell since they're already pure chi, I think it's intended for things which have physical bodies.

The 0 PPE guys couldn't do option 1 to replenish their base (since they have no base) but could use the 'diverted into a spell' option, to cast it within 2 melee rounds.

9.72% of normals who roll 8 on 2D6 can get 1 'positive or negative' chi mastery. This doesn't specify Advanced but if the GM allowed 'Chi Overcharge' from 154 then this could expand the amount of Chi the Demon could make PPE from.

Regenerating chi to cast it multiple times would only work once since it takes a full melee to cast chi magic. The problem goes:
Melee 1) spend a melee attack to focus your chi on Dark Chi (Chakuri Chi) to focus on replenishing
Melee 2) begin CCTP on 1st attack, use all attacks to cast, don't use ALL of your chi because Chakuri is limited to your current level, so use the current flow or half, whatever is less
Melee 3) spell takes effect on 1st attack and PPE will last 30 seconds, use your 1st attack to begin casting Convert Chi to PPE a second time. Your chi is whatever you didn't convert in the first casting PLUS whatever you added from 1 melee round worth of Chakuri. Given the 6 chi activation cost of the spell, this is only worthwhile if you are able to access 7 additional chi via Chakuri to gain a net benefit.

The strategy of regaining chi via Chakuri and casting 'Convert Chi to PPE' additional times would be more viable if you were able to hold the extra PPE beyond your base (in most cases 0) for more than 2 melees. Mystic China doesn't mention ley lines extending durations the way they do in other games, so I'm not sure if that could potentially help here.

Chakuri doesn't seem like much of a strategy. 3 points per melee in a shuttered building on a dark night or 6 points underground? The latter only helps you to break even on the cost of casting Convert Chi a second time! What's the point?

The only way it seems feasible is actually to take advantage of other chi spells which allow the manipulation of chi flow. An Infernal who knows all of them can do that to enhance it. They can begin with low cost spells and then piggyback the chi they gain from that to cast stronger ones.

The problem with that is the flow-enhancement spells have wording which may be unfulfillable by something which is trapped inside an object. For example:
pg 75 Draw Confining Arc "Drawing an invisible line in the air (using hand gestures)" could make it impossible to do the 'Arc of Gathering'
pg 76 Draw Flowing Spiral "An invisible line is drawn as the spell caster walks around" could also make it impossible, since you can't walk if trapped in an object
pg 83 Draw Alternate Line "drawing an invisible line in the air with hand gestures"
pg 88 Draw Wall "the spell caster draws an imaginary line, using hand gestures"

The only spell which doesn't specify 'hand' or 'walk' seems to be pg 86 Draw Spiral Line which only specifies drawing, but not the requirement of any leg or hand mobility to do it. This costs 25 PPE to do so it only seems feasible for those who somehow get access to Advanced Positive/Negative to do Overcharge prior to conversion.

I think this is one case where minions become very useful. The best idea would be to create human minions ahead of time (offer them immortality) and then if you are ever trapped, if you have taught them any of these spells, they might be able to sneak in and set up an enhanced chi flow to feed your escape attempts.

I thought about donation but I think only the positive chi version (Fu Zhensong) allows for absorbing chi donated from others, Chakuri-Chi doesn't mention that option, so direct aid from the unskilled could only help creatures filled with positive chi to escape, not negative.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:49 pm
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
Prodigy wrote:
I'm sure this has been asked but can Sword Chi be used with other weapons such as daggers or knives?

I don't see why not. If your Martial Art allows you to take Sword Chi as well as other Weapon Katas then I can see allowing that.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:58 pm
  

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Knight

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I certainly agree it doesn't seem unbalancing to allow it. Although I might require selecting the power multiple times for each WP category since doing this allows for extra flexibility.

IE if you allow a player to buy 'Knife Chi' then they'd have to spend a 2nd martial art technique to buy 'Axe Chi' or something.

Given concealability I could see a lot more people using knives or short clubs for this, it would let you bring the tool into a lot of areas you couldn't bring a sword.

Maybe make the basic 'sword chi' a prereq for buying secondary 'other weapon chi' skills? You learn the basics with swords then learn to adapt them with other weapons?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:41 pm
  

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As a GM I would allow the chi sword tech. to be used with another bladed weapon. However, the char would be restricted to That type of weapon. Thus, if the is a naganata user. The char could use the tech with her naganata….but if changing weapons the new weapon would need to be another Naganata.

In other words the MA Tech. would be a New MA Tech. and limited to just that weapon type.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:29 am
  

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Knight

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I'd probably just get sword chi: sharpened coin (put in purse) or sword chi: blunt (carry a cane) so I could covertly use the power at all times.

Allowing weapons less obvious than a sword really enhances the power, feels like there should be some cost for that, like double, or requiring a kata with the weapon (sword being the only exception where you don't need a kata to use it with sword chi, even though the arts that give it like Gui Long or Demon Hunter both have katas anyway)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:08 pm
  

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At some level I think it steps away from the source material; The Sword is, traditionally, the weapon of the gentlemen. Like in Western sources, The sword, and the sword-master, usually are structured as a long individual with abilities and powers derived from his dedication to a 'higher' class of weapon. In traditional Chinese sources, and especially Wuxia fiction, the Sword is special.

Now doesn't mean you couldn't go the other way if you wanted to; depends entirely really on the themes and... I guess 'character' you want to invoke.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:18 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I would say no
It is 'Sword Chi' after all.
However I would be open to the player discussing making a new version for a different weapon if they have a martial art that emphasizes that weapon to the point where such weapons are seen to have sufficient souls to be awoken

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:37 pm
  

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Knight

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*contemplating using sword chi on that rifts Oni Ninja assasination vibro short sword which changes into a gun and a personal laptop*

What's that about soulful weapons and gentlemanliness?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:11 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
*contemplating using sword chi on that rifts Oni Ninja assasination vibro short sword which changes into a gun and a personal laptop*

What's that about soulful weapons and gentlemanliness?

The way I see it...
1) using Sword Chi on a vibro-sword would give you a dual mode weapon... because the chi is in the sword not the energy aura around it, thus you can do EITHER vibro damage OR Chi damage, but you don't combine them

2a) you couldn't use the chi as a gun or laptop at all...
2b) you might even lose the chi when you change as you basically took the sword apart...

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:14 pm
  

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Monk

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eliakon wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
*contemplating using sword chi on that rifts Oni Ninja assassination vibro-short sword which changes into a gun and a personal laptop*

What's that about soulful weapons and gentlemanliness?

The way I see it...
1) using Sword Chi on a vibro-sword would give you a dual mode weapon... because the chi is in the sword not the energy aura around it, thus you can do EITHER vibro damage OR Chi damage, but you don't combine them

2a) you couldn't use the chi as a gun or laptop at all...
2b) you might even lose the chi when you change as you basically took the sword apart...

1) I would agree with Eli only in the Game Balance aspect of his opinion, not the why's.

2) Agrees that the chi powers could not be accessed while 'not a sword'. And that it just might not be feasible due to the mutability of the nano-tech item.

In games I GM I would not allow the use of these types of items to be used with the chi sword techniques.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:23 pm
  

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Knight

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If changing shape caused the weapon to lose chi, that could cause some problems for chain weapons or flexible wood weapons like a bo staff.

Heck, a lot of metal weapons have some bend to them. A fencing foil is technically a sword so you could use sword chi with it and it bends all over the place. The Indian urumi is another interesting example.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:52 pm
  

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Monk

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Axelmania wrote:
If changing shape caused the weapon to lose chi, that could cause some problems for chain weapons or flexible wood weapons like a bo staff.

Heck, a lot of metal weapons have some bend to them. A fencing foil is technically a sword so you could use sword chi with it and it bends all over the place. The Indian urumi is another interesting example.

Shape-changing due to flexing is not what is being talked about. For even swords flex when used. It is the changing of form shape-changing that is what gets the objections.

I would agree that moving multiple part weapons (chains, nano device as mentioned above, firearms, etc..) would not be able to use any aspect of the Chi-sword Tech. Even the storing chi part.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:50 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
If changing shape caused the weapon to lose chi, that could cause some problems for chain weapons or flexible wood weapons like a bo staff.

Heck, a lot of metal weapons have some bend to them. A fencing foil is technically a sword so you could use sword chi with it and it bends all over the place. The Indian urumi is another interesting example.

Flexing and "being taken apart into billions of tiny pieces and reassembled in a new shape" are different.
Swords flex, that is an intrinsic property of swords. As such we can safely assume that flexing is an allowed property of Sword Chi weapons since it is reflexively true.
Swords do NOT have as an intrinsic property being disassembled on a microscopic level into billions of tiny pieces which are then moved around and put back together in totally different configurations... possibly involving actual molecular changes in the make up of the material of the device. Thus I do not see a reason to assume that such should be considered an inherently allowed property of Sword Chi weapons.

Nor do swords have as an intrinsic property "is a computer" or "is a gun" thus I see no reason that something that is no longer a sword but is now a gun, or camera should be considered to be a sword any more.
And if something has stopped being a sword then it has stopped being a sword.

Just like if I take a Sword Chi charged Katana and shatter the blade into a dozen pieces and burn the hilt to ashes that it is no longer a sword and thus is no longer charged.
After all I can not simply charge a sword then re-forge that sword into something else and argue that it is still the sword.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:26 pm
  

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Knight

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Billions of tiny pieces isn't the impresion I get from the Oni Ninjas weapon. While DB3p61 says "uses nanotechnology" that doesn't mean the entire thing breaks down. What we do know:

"barrel compresses into a sword shape" + "handle shifts to provide a proper grip"

The basic version probably operates a lot like the "Blade Blaster" the Power Rangers used: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/pow ... r_MMPR.jpg

The first disguised version of a camera isn't that complicated to imagine : http://deadliestwarrior.wikia.com/wiki/Camera_Gun

Nor is the laptop version: http://perfectdark.wikia.com/wiki/Laptop_Gun

Although the camera/computer versions are more complicated than a simple sword/gun, they don't require complete deconstruction.

The additional transformative properties are probably a good place to draw the line though, and only allow sword chi from the basic gun/sword version, which isn't that far off from the flute/dart/knife in Mystic China.


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