Adjustments we want/need for a 2nd edition?

[green.nova343]

OK, with the recent discussion regarding the possibility of someone updating N&SS (either as its own 2nd Edition, or as a sourcebook for the other S.D.C. settings), I thought it might be a good idea for us to have our own discussion about updating N&SS.

To preface, though, N&SS has 2 very dubious "honors". First, it's the Palladium game with the longest time since an update (23 years since the Revised Edition first came out, 29 years since it first debuted). The Robotech setting was the only other one that used to have that much of a gap, but with Shadow Chronicles being released N&SS now has that "honor" all to itself. Unfortunately, that is further compounded by the problem of the state of the "universal" system that existed 20+ years ago. By that, I mean that it was the time when the dreaded "+2 AT/melee" issue was hotly debated on the ancient Palladium Mailing List, and only HU characters supposedly had the "+2 AT/melee on top of their other attacks" benefit. So, for example, the universal rule across all of the settings seems to be "combat training skills let you start with 4 attacks [3 for HTH: Assassin], with untrained characters starting with 1 combat or 2 non-combat actions per melee". Which is just one of the starting points we need to look at.

I don't know if we want to divide up discussion into separate sections, keep it all in one thread, or if there's even any interest in having any sort of discussion. However, we can divide the book into separate areas, of which some may need more adjustment while others need very little updating:

-- Character Creation (attributes, Alignment, Hit Points/S.D.C., O.C.C. selection, etc.)
-- Skills & Skill Programs
-- Available O.C.C.s
-- Spy Agency Creation
-- Equipment (Weapons, Armor, Cybernetics, Super-Vehicles, etc.)
-- Combat, Martial Art Forms, and Martial Art Abilities
-- Setting & Background Information
-- Converting and Using Martial Art Forms in other Palladium settings

Of those, I think some will need little to no work done:
-- For character creation, the primary difference will be the changeover in rolling attributes (i.e. Palladium standard is that, if you have extraordinary attributes & roll a 6 on your 1D6, you can roll another 1D6, for a maximum human attribute before skills of 30). I do think, though, that the section from RUE that talks about super-high (30+ attributes) and the section about low (9 or under) attributes should be included here. Some minor formatting changes (moving the optional Character Background tables to the end, adjusting the Quick Rolling a Martial Art Form tables so that they actually include all of the listed forms, and moving the Attribute Bonus table to the step where you actually roll your attributes) are really the only other changes I think need to be made.
-- I will say one thing, though: the note about characters not being able to have more than 1 Chi multiplier. I understand that it's meant to help hold down the power level. However, the listed martial arts that would have issues (Aikido, Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastery, and Snake Style Kung Fu) aren't going to occur very often. First, you can't combine Aikido with Tien-Hsueh, because both are exclusive; and if Snake Style is your primary, then you don't have any issues with any other forms (at least at 1st level). Second, the aligment restrictions (Tien-Hsueh [Diabolic only] + Snake Style [Dishonorable or Evil only] means the only practitioners will be of Diabolic alignment; Aikido [Principled, Scrupulous, Unprincipled, or Aberrant only] + Snake Style [Dishonorable or Evil only] means the only practitioners will be of Aberrant [evil] alignment) will most often limit those practitioners to villians & evil masterminds, which will most likely be few & far between for player characters. Not to mention that this will only apply to Dedicated Martial Artists (or an HU2 Ancient Master), so again not as common of an occurrence.
-- For those rare instances, however, or for the players that really want to play an aberrant character, I would suggest using the rule that applies to Critical Strikes. Usually, a Critical Strike does double damage. However, when you stack them up (i.e. Critical Strike from Behind + Critical Strike on natural 18-20, & your player rolled a natural 20) doesn't mean they get quad (x4) damage; instead, it scales up (i.e. instead of x4 for Critical from Behind with natural 20, it becomes x3). So, if the character has 2 martial art forms, & at a particular level they both give the character a multiplier to their base/existing Chi, then increase the multiplier by 1. Also, I would recommend that, if combining a martial art that has a Chi multiplier with another martial art that gives them a bonus to their Chi base (+5, +10, +15, +20, etc.), then the multiplier gets applied before the Chi bonus (i.e. instead of their CHi being (PE+10) x 2, it's PE x 2 + 10). While it may seem to make the DMA more powerful, remember that the DMA sacrifices skills (particularly skills applicable to the "modern" world) in return for his martial art skills & special powers, & those particular forms focus on Chi Mastery. I don't think letting them have a little extra Chi is going to imbalance it that much.
-- Instead of the weapon & equipment sections being in the back, put them together with the Cybernetics and Super-Vehicle sections. The latter should incorporate any changes made between HU Revised & HU2 (& possibly any further adjustments to bring them more in line with modern-day real-world technology), and of course computer equipment should be brought more in line with real-world tech. The cost for cybernetic systems should probably be adjusted as well, to reflect again any increases between the two HU editions, although we're not looking at really increasing the power level per se. To me, bionics HU-style makes me think of DC's Cyborg character, where there's high-level augmentation going on but they're not bothering to hide it; cybernetics N&SS-style, however, is more like Steve Austin the Six Million Dollar Man: he may be faster & stronger than the average human, but the augmentation is less noticeable. However, I would also recommend better integration with HU-style bionics, where characters can increase their budgets to replace cybernetic systems with bionics, with the understanding that they'll be less able (or even unable) to disguise the augmentation.
-- O.C.C.s primarily need their weekly salaries & Implant Budgets updated, to reflect the increased cost of technology & living expenses. Other than that, I don't know if there are too many changes that need to be made, at least not without looking over the skills (but that's a separate item).
-- Spy Agency Creation rules should remain the same, with the possible exception of any dollar amounts listed.
-- Aside from perhaps any historical updates (i.e. perhaps mentioning that Hong Kong was transferred back to mainland China's control back in 1999), as well as updates on hot spots & trouble areas, the Background & Setting information in the back can probably be left as-is.


Now, in case you're wondering, that leaves us with some areas that require more in-depth discussion to determine how they need adjusted:
-- Skills & Skill Programs need a lot of work, particularly for the N&SS-exclusive skills (like Microwave Communications and Circuit-Board Microelectronics). I think they also need some work because I like the idea of making them available to HU2 characters as well.
-- Combat & Martial Art Forms need adjusted. To me, the biggest issue with the martial art forms is they need 2 additional attacks per melee added on at 1st level. The newer-style generic HTH skills from RUE, Shadow Chronicles, BTS2, and even HU2, are much closer to the Agent skills than the old-style generic, non-Agent versions (particularly with having more hand & foot strikes available), but the Palladium standard now seems to be that all characters with combat training start with at least 4 attacks (except HTH: Assassin, but even that's at 3 attacks, +2 over the original), essentially a "+2 for living" situation, as well as non-trained characters actually having options (starting at 1 combat or 2 non-combat actions per melee, and maxing out at higher levels with 3 combat or 6 non-combat actions). There's also a need to clarify certain combat terms that were slightly different in N&SS (i.e. automatic dodge, "multiple dodge", etc.). Finally, I think we can dispense with Ninjitsu and Thai Kick Boxing costing the DMA 2 martial art selections. If nothing else, it makes the whole "If the character knows Ninjitsu, they can learn these forms in less time" snafu, since they otherwise wouldn't be able to learn them.
-- Martial Art Powers & Abilities probably don't need to be adjusted. The only caveat here is that there is now a discrepancy in the Rifts conversion of certain powers. Body Hardening Exercises, for example, were S.D.C. for N&SS & other S.D.C. settings, & then converted straight to M.D.C. in Rifts Earth according to CB1. However, WB8 (Rifts Japan) changed those, making them still S.D.C. (with different attribute/S.D.C. bonuses) but allowing the character to spend P.P.E. to temporarily convert into an M.D.C. being (sort of similar to how Chi Gung spends Chi points to give the character temporary "natural" body armor). Without knocking the master Eric's work on Rifts China, I much prefer those versions of the abilities to the Rifts China variations, if for no other reason than Chi goes together with P.P.E. better than it does with I.S.P. (note that all characters have P.P.E. and Chi, albeit at varying levels, but only psychic characters have I.S.P.). I would still prefer that martial arts be Chi-based if possible instead of P.P.E.-based, but if we have to end up with a P.P.E. basis I'd at least accept that.
-- Adapting martial art forms to other Palladium settings needs to be adjusted as well. Some of the adaptations are because of changes in specific settings (for example, HU2 has made changes to the combat training skills of the Ancient Master and Physical Training categories, so some adjustments need to be made there, other Special Training categories have had changes made to their skill selections so slight changes will be needed there; OTOH, PFRPG 1st Edition didn't allow any characters to have S.D.C., just Hit Points, so the Ancient Martial Artist conversion had no S.D.C. With PFRGP 2nd Edition adding S.D.C. to all characters, that particular conversion needs updated as well). Other adaptations are easily covered by the excellent article in Rifter #3 (Everybody's Kung Fu Fighting), with non-exclusive forms requiring an extra 4 skills beyond HTH: Martial Arts and exclusive forms requiring 6. My only caveat with that is the "replace 1 Elective/Related skill with 2 Secondary skills to determine cost"; I understand the rationale (the old HU Revised base conversion was "3 physical or 6 Secondary skills"), but I think it ends up being a little steep. A 3-for-2 conversion, however, would be more ideal (i.e. you spend 4 Elective/6 Secondary/mix of 2 Elective and 3 Secondary for a non-exclusive form, 6 Elective/9 Secondary/mix of 4 Elective and 3 Secondary/mix of 2 Elective and 6 Secondary for an exclusive form). I also think that some of the HU2 categories that were previously locked out of learning martial arts should be allowed within reason to learn them know, but that is probably its own discussion.

Any thoughts before I start expanding with my own ideas?

[Tor]

it's the Palladium game with the longest time since an update (23 years since the Revised Edition first came out, 29 years since it first debuted).

Is TMNT a candidate?

the note about characters not being able to have more than 1 Chi multiplier. I understand that it's meant to help hold down the power level. However, the listed martial arts that would have issues (Aikido, Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastery, and Snake Style Kung Fu) aren't going to occur very often. First, you can't combine Aikido with Tien-Hsueh, because both are exclusive; and if Snake Style is your primary, then you don't have any issues with any other forms (at least at 1st level). Second, the aligment restrictions (Tien-Hsueh [Diabolic only] + Snake Style [Dishonorable or Evil only] means the only practitioners will be of Diabolic alignment; Aikido [Principled, Scrupulous, Unprincipled, or Aberrant only] + Snake Style [Dishonorable or Evil only] means the only practitioners will be of Aberrant [evil] alignment) will most often limit those practitioners to villians & evil masterminds, which will most likely be few & far between for player characters. Not to mention that this will only apply to Dedicated Martial Artists (or an HU2 Ancient Master), so again not as common of an occurrence.

Let's not overlook Tai Chi though. While it doesn't get a multiplier at first level, it gets a bonus that's higher than your average PE (effectively BETTER than doubling it) and with later levels, equals Snake and Tien in multipliers. The total multipliers that Aikido gives is barely notable by comparison.

I would recommend that, if combining a martial art that has a Chi multiplier with another martial art that gives them a bonus to their Chi base (+5, +10, +15, +20, etc.), then the multiplier gets applied before the Chi bonus (i.e. instead of their CHi being (PE+10) x 2, it's PE x 2 + 10). While it may seem to make the DMA more powerful, remember that the DMA sacrifices skills (particularly skills applicable to the "modern" world) in return for his martial art skills & special powers, & those particular forms focus on Chi Mastery. I don't think letting them have a little extra Chi is going to imbalance it that much.

The rules are already quite clear that the bonus to chi is added to PE before the multipliers take effect, and I like that. All that would serve to do is make PE more important and minimize the benefits of chi bonuses. Chi bonuses being useful makes sense to me because it's raw power from training that can't be taken away, as opposed to PE which can be reduced by crippling injuries.

There's also a need to clarify certain combat terms that were slightly different in N&SS (i.e. automatic dodge, "multiple dodge", etc.).

Agreed. It's possible to understand them but a more specific emphasis on them would be useful considering how they differ from other systems. Auto-dodge in other systems appears to work like an auto-parry, whereas in N&SS you need to spend your first melee action on it just in case you might need it, effectively lowering attacks per melee by 1 permanently if you want to have it on all the time.

I dislike the term 'multiple' for dodge because the way they describe dodge, it already does work on multiple opponents, just only those you can see, whereas Multiple also lets your single dodge roll apply to attacks from behind coming at you. Something like "360 dodge" or "maxidodge", I dunno.

We use the term 'circular' to modify parry when someone is able to do automatic parries against those from behind. I guess 'circular dodge' sounds weird... but maybe we could have a term that is used for both to reduce confusion. I like the "360" idea tbh. I know they probably want to avoid the use of numbers in combat terms to avoid confusion with rolls or damage but I don't think using 360 would be that bad.

I think we can dispense with Ninjitsu and Thai Kick Boxing costing the DMA 2 martial art selections. If nothing else, it makes the whole "If the character knows Ninjitsu, they can learn these forms in less time" snafu, since they otherwise wouldn't be able to learn them.

I'd also like to see them reduced to 1 MA selection (they're honestly NOT that good) but the reduced learning time isn't exactly a Snafu. After all, since people can change OCCs (or get bonus skills, which might be spent on HtH, at later levels) it would be possible for someone with these 2 exclusive 2-slot MAs to learn additional forms, just that they would not be advancing alongside them.

One major reason the whole "takes 2" thing should be removed is that they're already exclusive forms, and exclusive forms are already specified as taking 2 MA forms. That restricts the two of them to Dedicated Martial Artist already, unless you're playing an HU-style mutant animal, who can also get the N&SS martial art (or the less expansive TMNT one).

there is now a discrepancy in the Rifts conversion of certain powers. Body Hardening Exercises, for example, were S.D.C. for N&SS & other S.D.C. settings, & then converted straight to M.D.C. in Rifts Earth according to CB1. However, WB8 (Rifts Japan) changed those, making them still S.D.C. (with different attribute/S.D.C. bonuses) but allowing the character to spend P.P.E. to temporarily convert into an M.D.C. being (sort of similar to how Chi Gung spends Chi points to give the character temporary "natural" body armor). Without knocking the master Eric's work on Rifts China, I much prefer those versions of the abilities to the Rifts China variations, if for no other reason than Chi goes together with P.P.E. better than it does with I.S.P. (note that all characters have P.P.E. and Chi, albeit at varying levels, but only psychic characters have I.S.P.). I would still prefer that martial arts be Chi-based if possible instead of P.P.E.-based, but if we have to end up with a P.P.E. basis I'd at least accept that.

PPE basis would suck IMO, it would ruin Mystic China which clearly treats chi and PPE as different energies.

I don't hate the new versions from China and Japan, but I see them as Rifts-exclusive variations which supplement rather than replace the N&SS stats. The CB1 stuff on MDC should just be ignored IMO, there's not really any logical reason for chi stuff to turn MD as magic and psi have, is there? SDC bonuses are fine, Rifts is drowning in dozens of ways for SDC humanoids to get their damage capacity changed into MDC, ninjas will find a way, don't worry about our Rifts Mercs bro.

HU2 has made changes to the combat training skills of the Ancient Master and Physical Training categories, so some adjustments need to be made there, other Special Training categories have had changes made to their skill selections so slight changes will be needed there;

What types of changes? The major thing I recall is the note about Ancient Masters knowing 3 martial arts, which I think differs from the note in HU2 which I think just says to make them a high level Dedicated (ie with only 2 forms).

OTOH, PFRPG 1st Edition didn't allow any characters to have S.D.C., just Hit Points, so the Ancient Martial Artist conversion had no S.D.C. With PFRGP 2nd Edition adding S.D.C. to all characters, that particular conversion needs updated as well).

Wouldn't the standard for man at arms (I think d4x10? That's what Rifts uses...) work?

excellent article in Rifter #3 (Everybody's Kung Fu Fighting), with non-exclusive forms requiring an extra 4 skills beyond HTH: Martial Arts and exclusive forms requiring 6. My only caveat with that is the "replace 1 Elective/Related skill with 2 Secondary skills to determine cost"; I understand the rationale (the old HU Revised base conversion was "3 physical or 6 Secondary skills"), but I think it ends up being a little steep. A 3-for-2 conversion, however, would be more ideal (i.e. you spend 4 Elective/6 Secondary/mix of 2 Elective and 3 Secondary for a non-exclusive form, 6 Elective/9 Secondary/mix of 4 Elective and 3 Secondary/mix of 2 Elective and 6 Secondary for an exclusive form).

Too complicated. A steep cost for secondary substitution for elective/OCC-related is fine, because people are for the most part going to sacrifice their secondary skills anyway, seeing as how they have limitations in what skills can be selected, don't get any bonuses, etc.

I also think that some of the HU2 categories that were previously locked out of learning martial arts should be allowed within reason to learn them know, but that is probably its own discussion.

If you mean Alien/Magic then I agree completely. Within reason of course. The wheel-chair bound cancer patient who becomes a Mystic Bestowed probably isn't going to know any, unless perhaps they studied them prior to getting sick. Of course since some of the Bestowed selections provide a Hand-to-Hand that might get complicated. If they stayed in the Bestowed form all the time I guess they could be learning a martial art in it.

There's no reason why a Weapon/Object char couldn't learn them too. I sorta understand why they don't want the Mystic Study (WIZARD) to learn them since he's the whole cerebral bookworm type, but I think that's antiquated and we could have sorcerers learning to fight. Battle Mages and stuff in Rifts certainly show that it's possible. Heck, the magical PCCs (why they're psychic I dunno) in Mystic China can cast spells while also knowing a martial art.

I think it's kinda okay to keep martial arts from the full conversion borgs or mind-transfer robots though, since they've gone so far from the human body that the movements and subtleties may not adapt to their body anymore.