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 Post subject: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:18 pm
  

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Wanderer

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Well, this is interesting.

Carmen has decided to cancel the current kickstarter, and plans to re-launch it later on, now that he's got an idea of what his backers are expecting from him early on. I like it - it shows a good level of maturity. There's a number of projects which have cancelled once, re-grouped, and gone on to great success.

Good luck, Carmen!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ro ... ts/1883960

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:33 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Staff

Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:55 pm
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jcfiala wrote:
Well, this is interesting.

Carmen has decided to cancel the current kickstarter, and plans to re-launch it later on, now that he's got an idea of what his backers are expecting from him early on. I like it - it shows a good level of maturity. There's a number of projects which have cancelled once, re-grouped, and gone on to great success.

Good luck, Carmen!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ro ... ts/1883960


Agreed - I also think Carmen is brave in doing this as I'm sure the trolls will try to use this as a way to beat him down. Don't listen to 'em Carmen! You are great and deserve the best!!

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 1:36 pm
  

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Wanderer

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LeperColony wrote:
EDIT: Trolling


I'm sympathetic, myself. I think as much publicity about what happened with Robotech is only helpful - if anything, it's an example of what out of control stretch goals and addons can do. Personally, I think that the fact that the campaign was put on hold makes me think that Carmen's company is at arm's length from Palladium, but everyone has their own opinion on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:43 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Unfair as it may be, a minis board game Kickstarter campaign is going to be compared and contrasted to the dozens of other successful ones that have been run, and the dozens more that will be active or looming whenever they plan to relaunch it.

For $100-150, people expect X minis of a given level of detail, boards, dice, limited edition swag, etc, etc, even if it's not entirely realistic for a variety of reasons. And that's unfortunate, not every company/project is CMoN, or has a massive license that draws in backers by the thousands (Terminator, Aliens, Evil Dead,... Robotech, etc). So we end up with a niche product (board game) aimed at an already niche audience (Rifts fans).

Now, support exists! We saw it, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars offered up in a few days. But the rumbling was also there, and not just the 'trolling'. Legitimate concerns, desires for increased 'value' (subjective as that often is), and expectations on the quality of the game and components, including information to make as informed a choice as possible.

The sad reality is that Kickstarter has changed. The community remains massive and incredibly generous at times, but people have been 'burned' often enough to be wary. Some of those complaints are borne of being strung around for years, or receiving sub-standard quality items, or not getting anything at all. It means Creators are being held to a higher standard, because backers are tired of committing possibly hundreds of dollars to a campaign only to watch it flounder for years. Creators are expected to know the ins and outs of the industry ever better, because they should have at least looked into other campaigns and seen where the issues were hit. The questions asked weren't anything ground breaking, they were things that thousands of projects have handled in one fashion or another on the platform (and others).

To be clear, I did not back the Rifts BG campaign. Not even $1 to get into a few unnecessary arguments (I get into enough of those elsewhere). I'm sorry to see this campaign had to be ended early, but I hope Carmen and the team can relaunch and come back stronger than ever, having learned valuable lessons from this attempt.


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:33 am
  

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Palladium Books® Staff

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Excellent points Forar! And I agree, the early giddy days of Kickstarter have ended as people have matured in their expectations. I hear that there are even university classes now for how to run a successful crowd-funding campaign.

_________________
A wise man once said, "Only a fool takes offense where none was intended." I repeat this good advice to myself at least once a day.

Calm, reasoned discourse is the best way to change minds; too bad all the calm & reason in the world can't open a willfully closed mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:05 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
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I have been at Chupacabra Con in Austin this weekend with guests like Gareth-Michael Skarka, John Wick, Sean Patrick Fannon and pretty much all of Pinnacle and they have discussed extensively how even if you don't need the money to launch a product Kickstarter has become absolutely essential to the early marketing of a product. They also talked about how after KS takes there share and all the other costs that the return is a lot lower than direct sales so for smaller companies it can be a problem. It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.

Don't get me wrong, I love this and I have or am backing 45 projects and a lot of those are gaming. I also don't believe this is across the board in gaming. I back a guy named Ryan Wolfe, like 10 times now. Each of his KS is the dame. He has a PDF of a Space ship with generic stats and deck plans. You get a double sided poster and a mini of that ship, that's it. The stretch goals are only additional digital art. His KS never get very big but every one succeeds and he reliable has 200 or so backers. But most products couldn't be launched like this, he just uses it like a store.

It's weird but in other communities on KS like art, science, public service, and education the expectations are still pretty much reasonable in terms of both stretch goals and delivery time. But, in gaming the expectations seem to be sky high and rising. This is fine for companies like Pinnacle but it can not be good for new or struggling companies.

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:14 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.


I think this is being a bit uncharitable. While there are certainly some people and companies that use it as an advanced pre-order system, market research, Etsy shop, a combination thereof or something else entirely, there are still piles of projects out there that are for technology that wouldn't be made without a massive sum provided by regular means or an angel investor of some sort. There are piles of small campaigns where a person with an idea or a goal asks for help to reach it.

Mini heavy board or war game campaigns draw a lot of attention for hitting 6 or even 7 figures, but I think it's disingenuous to assert that the entire platform (if not the notion of crowdfunding entirely) is just for big companies to do elaborate pre-order schemes with (often) bad refund policies.

That's the flashy part of things, and it's no surprise that those titles get a lot of attention (I'm sure Kickstarter enjoys making 5 or 6 figures just for providing the site and support), but it's certainly not the only aspect to how they do business. Go search some random keywords, or browse through some of the genres that you haven't contributed to. There's tons of things to discover. Many of them entirely uninteresting, but they're out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:30 am
  

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Wanderer

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Warshield73 wrote:
I have been at Chupacabra Con in Austin this weekend with guests like Gareth-Michael Skarka, John Wick, Sean Patrick Fannon and pretty much all of Pinnacle and they have discussed extensively how even if you don't need the money to launch a product Kickstarter has become absolutely essential to the early marketing of a product. They also talked about how after KS takes there share and all the other costs that the return is a lot lower than direct sales so for smaller companies it can be a problem. It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.


Yeah, Gareth-Michael Skarka, who's almost six years late on delivering on his RPG that he kickstarted back in 2011. Yeah, he's one to listen to on kickstarter.

(Sorry, I'm a little bitter there. Instead of finishing the game that's "resolved in the next couple of weeks", he's off playing at a convention.)

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:25 am
  

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I backed John Wick's KS, and was amazed at not just the quality, but the communication and professionalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:18 am
  

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"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
Forar wrote:
To be clear, I did not back the Rifts BG campaign. Not even $1 to get into a few unnecessary arguments (I get into enough of those elsewhere). I'm sorry to see this campaign had to be ended early, but I hope Carmen and the team can relaunch and come back stronger than ever, having learned valuable lessons from this attempt.

I appreciate and did the same. I don't want to buy an over priced board game. I want a cheap, fun, and playable board game. I want something that I can stick a six year old in front of, explain the rules and run. Roll a die, Move a Mini, Pick up Card, Resolve Turn. I really hope Carmen and Rogue Heroes are able to figure things out, so he can see his vision come to life.

warshield73 wrote:
It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.

This is what I was hoping it wouldn't be. I was hoping it would allow those backers to also be "Play Testers" and give valuable feedback. Let them be the proof readers to catch the glaring errors before they go to print. Clean up language that is clunky and problematic.


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:11 am
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

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Tiree wrote:
Forar wrote:
To be clear, I did not back the Rifts BG campaign. Not even $1 to get into a few unnecessary arguments (I get into enough of those elsewhere). I'm sorry to see this campaign had to be ended early, but I hope Carmen and the team can relaunch and come back stronger than ever, having learned valuable lessons from this attempt.

I appreciate and did the same. I don't want to buy an over priced board game. I want a cheap, fun, and playable board game. I want something that I can stick a six year old in front of, explain the rules and run. Roll a die, Move a Mini, Pick up Card, Resolve Turn. I really hope Carmen and Rogue Heroes are able to figure things out, so he can see his vision come to life.

I have to say this is the opposite of what I want. In my experience cheap = garbage and I have no 7 year olds in my life nor am I likely to anytime soon. But to be fair, even if you got what you wanted I would probably still back it.

Now one thing that would be interesting is a dual system. If any of you played the old Heroscape game each card had 2 sets of stats. A basic stat on the front for a simple kid friendly game and the back was advanced stats with specific powers and bonuses that made the game a lot more interesting. That would be cool.

Tiree wrote:
warshield73 wrote:
It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.

This is what I was hoping it wouldn't be. I was hoping it would allow those backers to also be "Play Testers" and give valuable feedback. Let them be the proof readers to catch the glaring errors before they go to print. Clean up language that is clunky and problematic.

This would be nice but the problem for writers is the second you release something to backers PDF's of your unfinished product hit the boards and you and your project are judged by it so it is a major risk.

However you are right, this kind of system would be amazing.

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Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:11 am
  

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Forar wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.


I think this is being a bit uncharitable. While there are certainly some people and companies that use it as an advanced pre-order system, market research, Etsy shop, a combination thereof or something else entirely, there are still piles of projects out there that are for technology that wouldn't be made without a massive sum provided by regular means or an angel investor of some sort. There are piles of small campaigns where a person with an idea or a goal asks for help to reach it.

Mini heavy board or war game campaigns draw a lot of attention for hitting 6 or even 7 figures, but I think it's disingenuous to assert that the entire platform (if not the notion of crowdfunding entirely) is just for big companies to do elaborate pre-order schemes with (often) bad refund policies.

That's the flashy part of things, and it's no surprise that those titles get a lot of attention (I'm sure Kickstarter enjoys making 5 or 6 figures just for providing the site and support), but it's certainly not the only aspect to how they do business. Go search some random keywords, or browse through some of the genres that you haven't contributed to. There's tons of things to discover. Many of them entirely uninteresting, but they're out there.

Feel free to call it harsh but that doesn't make it untrue. I was in a panel when Carmen canceled his KS, I actually found out from one of the Pinnacle panelists announcing it. During that panel and one the next day several of the freelance writers said they had KS's on hold until they could get the money together to prepare stretch goals and extras, you know the thing you would do a KS for.

To be fair, I did say that you don't see this in other KS communities. I back a lot of projects, I am a Super Backer whatever that means, and many of the projects I have backed in other communities on KS do not operate like this. Now I am no business expert and I spend zero time on social media so all I am basing this on is the guests at the con, who have done a combined 50+ KS's according to the panel intro, and my own experience so again whatever it is worth.

jcfiala wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I have been at Chupacabra Con in Austin this weekend with guests like Gareth-Michael Skarka, John Wick, Sean Patrick Fannon and pretty much all of Pinnacle and they have discussed extensively how even if you don't need the money to launch a product Kickstarter has become absolutely essential to the early marketing of a product. They also talked about how after KS takes there share and all the other costs that the return is a lot lower than direct sales so for smaller companies it can be a problem. It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.


Yeah, Gareth-Michael Skarka, who's almost six years late on delivering on his RPG that he kickstarted back in 2011. Yeah, he's one to listen to on kickstarter.

(Sorry, I'm a little bitter there. Instead of finishing the game that's "resolved in the next couple of weeks", he's off playing at a convention.)

I had never heard of him before truthfully but your experience does make a few comments about him that I heard make more sense. Note to self, avoid his KS's.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:15 am
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:38 pm
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Warshield73 wrote:
jcfiala wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I have been at Chupacabra Con in Austin this weekend with guests like Gareth-Michael Skarka, John Wick, Sean Patrick Fannon and pretty much all of Pinnacle and they have discussed extensively how even if you don't need the money to launch a product Kickstarter has become absolutely essential to the early marketing of a product. They also talked about how after KS takes there share and all the other costs that the return is a lot lower than direct sales so for smaller companies it can be a problem. It's sometimes hard to remember that KS started out as a place for new ideas and products to find support and funding that they need or they wouldn't exist. Now, it's just a pre-order site.


Yeah, Gareth-Michael Skarka, who's almost six years late on delivering on his RPG that he kickstarted back in 2011. Yeah, he's one to listen to on kickstarter.

(Sorry, I'm a little bitter there. Instead of finishing the game that's "resolved in the next couple of weeks", he's off playing at a convention.)

I had never heard of him before truthfully but your experience does make a few comments about him that I heard make more sense. Note to self, avoid his KS's.


To his credit, GMS hasn't repeated a classic mistake of early kickstarters, where they ran a second kickstarter while the first hadn't been done yet. But yeah, there's a reason why a lot of small companies doing rpg kickstarters announce that they have the book written (if not completely edited/arted/laid out) when the campaign starts, and often offers the rough draft of the game as an instant download for backers.

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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:42 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:01 am
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Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
Warshield73 wrote:
Tiree wrote:
Forar wrote:
To be clear, I did not back the Rifts BG campaign. Not even $1 to get into a few unnecessary arguments (I get into enough of those elsewhere). I'm sorry to see this campaign had to be ended early, but I hope Carmen and the team can relaunch and come back stronger than ever, having learned valuable lessons from this attempt.

I appreciate and did the same. I don't want to buy an over priced board game. I want a cheap, fun, and playable board game. I want something that I can stick a six year old in front of, explain the rules and run. Roll a die, Move a Mini, Pick up Card, Resolve Turn. I really hope Carmen and Rogue Heroes are able to figure things out, so he can see his vision come to life.

I have to say this is the opposite of what I want. In my experience cheap = garbage and I have no 7 year olds in my life nor am I likely to anytime soon. But to be fair, even if you got what you wanted I would probably still back it.

Now one thing that would be interesting is a dual system. If any of you played the old Heroscape game each card had 2 sets of stats. A basic stat on the front for a simple kid friendly game and the back was advanced stats with specific powers and bonuses that made the game a lot more interesting. That would be cool.

I could back a dual system, because that gives more life to the game.

I know some folks are looking at this to get quality mini's for their games. I'm not, I'm looking at a way to get a fast and loose fun game for a few hours. So I'd be just as happy with Cardboard Cutouts. So maybe a Basic and Deluxe set might be in order. For me, I want something quick to set up, quick to play, quick to learn, and lots of fun. I don't want to Wargame, that calls itself a board game. I want a Board Game that is a Board Game.


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 Post subject: Re: Project on Hold
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:57 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:18 pm
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Warshield73 wrote:
I am a Super Backer whatever that means.


I have backed 85 projects to date, ranging from $1 to well over a grand.

It means nothing other than that 'you backed a specific number of projects within a specific period of time'.

It's an 'achievement unlocked' for crowd funding, and carries just as much weight. :-P

As for "harsh but not being untrue", I explained why I felt it was uncharitable. Just because 10% of the creators are using it in a way doesn't mean the other 90% should be lumped in with them.


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