Thought experiment: Getting a satellite into orbit

[Dr Megaverse]

I'm curious what ideas folks have for this particular subject.

How would you go about placing a satellite into orbit and maintaining its orbit for an extended period of time (no greater than a year)?

All considerations about the state of Earth's orbit and the near Earth colonies would be as described in SA2, MiO, etc. For the sake of the thought experiment lets assume you have access to any resource listed in canon materials which originates on Earth. Let us assume the ability to use 3G and other Phaseworkd type tech is for whatever reason restricted and unavailable. Assume you'll have all the trouble associated with the countermeasures the near Earth colonies have placed including their ability to intercept and destroy satellites with their own spacecraft.

Any thoughts?

[eliakon]

Step 1. Make a TW device that will have a very long duration combination of Invisibility Superior and Invisibility to Sensors for stealth and flight spells for positioning. (I would look at the Glittermount as an example of the ability to do this)
Step 2. Dimensional Teleport the Satellite into orbit
Step 3. Profit.

[SpiritInterface]

How high up are we talking? High Atmospheric orbit, low Low Earth orbit? What do you want to do with it?

From what I read anything Near High Atmospheric orbit 150 miles or less the K-Sats and Orbital Habs ignore. So you should be able to put up short term comm or observational satellites.

[glitterboy2098]

it would need to be at least medium earth orbit to stay clear of the CODF and killsats. so between 2000km and geostationary (35,786 kilometres)

[Killer Cyborg]

Step 1. Make a TW device that will have a very long duration combination of Invisibility Superior and Invisibility to Sensors for stealth and flight spells for positioning. (I would look at the Glittermount as an example of the ability to do this)
Step 2. Dimensional Teleport the Satellite into orbit
Step 3. Profit.

Yup.

[SpiritInterface]

it would need to be at least medium earth orbit to stay clear of the CODF and killsats. so between 2000km and geostationary (35,786 kilometres)

If you could get through the orbital debris belt and K-Sats it would be too high to be of worth.

[Natasha]

it would need to be at least medium earth orbit to stay clear of the CODF and killsats. so between 2000km and geostationary (35,786 kilometres)

If you could get through the orbital debris belt and K-Sats it would be too high to be of worth.

Why?

As for the op, yes, use magic. There are lots of applications of magic to exploring and cleaning up space to allow earth to develop a space programme.

[Library Ogre]

Teleportation is a good option; the teleportation circles from Palladium Fantasy will do it quite well, especially on a ley line.

If I had to rely on tech ('Cause magic is kind of a cheat in this)? I'd design the satellite to be as low-sensor-profile as possible until it was in its operational zone. It would have multiple, serial energy shields (Triax can do this, per the Ultimax, and while you've said "No Phase World Tech", I'm leaving the option open for Naruni forcefields), so when one goes down, the next pops into place.

When I launched it, it would initially be fired from a railgun to reduce launch signature, with a chemical rocket boost once it's reached an adequate altitude. I'd also launch a bunch of medium* to long range missiles in the area, close to its flight path, as a mobile field of chaff; to save money, they wouldn't have much in the way of warheads, just a bunch of sensor confetti. Any countermeasures would be more likely to hit the high-signature missiles, and the redundant energy shields not only protect from the countermeasures (and their Area of Effects), but the debris field.

*I think medium range missiles have sufficient range. Don't recall, can't be bothered to check

[Nightmask]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

[Natasha]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

Overshoot, accelerate (magically), 'fall' into place.

[Library Ogre]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

It will, but assuming you have the engines on the thing, you can manage that (As Nat said, overshoot, let it "drop" and then place it in the proper orbit with lower-energy thrusters). It might attract attention, it might not... space is pretty big, and the Orbitals have purposefully cluttered it.

[Killer Cyborg]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

[Natasha]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

[glitterboy2098]

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

[Killer Cyborg]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

[eliakon]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

Which means that teleporting into space will mean your going to match the local speeds.....so you teleported satellite will already be going orbital speeds (or near to it).
So it will just need some fine-tuning drives (either my proposed magical flight system, or some rocket motors, probably stripped off of some missiles)

[Natasha]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

Excellent point regarding teleporting somewhere.

But unfortunately we can't use the MRM as a launch vehicle. Ignoring effects of the sun, we need 11 km/s for launch from Earth. Launching from the equator helps but it's not enough.

[eliakon]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

Excellent point regarding teleporting somewhere.

But unfortunately we can't use the MRM as a launch vehicle. Ignoring effects of the sun, we need 11 km/s for launch from Earth. Launching from the equator helps but it's not enough.

So just teleport the satellite. And use the MRM to speed up/slow down as needed.....

[Natasha]

Ah yes I may have misunderstood. But unless it can turn 180 degrees we need another one for deceleration. Burning the rocket fuel will change the orbit but not significantly I imagine. Personally I like the magic engines. I imagine TWs would be all over it given the opportunity and I could see the Germans giving it to them. If the Germans militarised space seriously, the CS could be turned into a vassal state at least for a while.

[glitterboy2098]

killer cyborg.. the target is not 1km/s

it's 8.2 km/s, or about 18,342.88mph. you need that to get out to medium orbit. for a higher orbit you reach that then slow down to closer to 3.1km/s to insert it into the orbit you want.

and yes the rotation of the earth can help give speed.. though given the CODF orbits opposite of the earths rotation, you'll actually want to send the rocket up in the same kind of counter-rotation orbit, so you'd actually have to add that velocity instead. a small price to pay to pass through the CODF debris at a slower relative speed and thus take less damage.

so an MRM or LRM could not be the platform used, you'd have to build a custom design rocket to carry your payload.


and natasha.. there is no need to 'ignore the effects of the sun' because the suns gravity is effecting things equally in the relative reference frame of earth orbit. you don't need to ignore it because it was never a factor.

and every rocket can turn 180 degrees.. even without vernier thrusters, it can clutch it's attitude control gyroscopes to spin in any direction it needs. (this works better on small craft than big ones). this is how most satellites and small rockets steer in fact.. the gyroscopes are already spinning, by braking against their shafts in the right places you can impart that momentum to the spacecraft and get it to turn, and then to stop turning.

so no 2nd drive is required. just a throttle system on the one you have (which you'd need anyway to do the orbital insertion) and enough reaction mass.

and burning rocket fuel can impart a lot of change of velocity, and thus change of orbit. heck thats all we've got IRL and we can do a lot of stuff with it. it's just bulky.

[Natasha]

and natasha.. there is no need to 'ignore the effects of the sun' because the suns gravity is effecting things equally in the relative reference frame of earth orbit. you don't need to ignore it because it was never a factor.

and every rocket can turn 180 degrees.. even without vernier thrusters, it can clutch it's attitude control gyroscopes to spin in any direction it needs. (this works better on small craft than big ones). this is how most satellites and small rockets steer in fact.. the gyroscopes are already spinning, by braking against their shafts in the right places you can impart that momentum to the spacecraft and get it to turn, and then to stop turning.

so no 2nd drive is required. just a throttle system on the one you have (which you'd need anyway to do the orbital insertion) and enough reaction mass.

and burning rocket fuel can impart a lot of change of velocity, and thus change of orbit. heck thats all we've got IRL and we can do a lot of stuff with it. it's just bulky.

The Sun's gravity is not equal. The Earth has a radius and non-circular orbit. The tides work the way they do because the Sun's gravity field is there and is variable. Since distance from the Sun changes, so, too, does the gravitation. The same is true of launching a vehicle; it's distance from the Sun and the Earth are changing. For this reason, energy conservation is the easiest means of determining escape velocity. When done for Earth that's about 11km/s +/- a bit depending on your direction of launch. But you have to calculate the potential energy change due to Earth and the potential energy change due to the Sun and add them together. Running those numbers yields about 45 km/s. After all, we don't want our satellite to fall into the Sun.

As about gyroscopes, I'm told that MRM in Rifts are not as a rule equipped with these. Still, it's a valid point. They could as well be on the vehicle itself. Indeed, they accidentally spun Voyager around just by turning on its videotape camera.

I should be more specific about burning rocket fuel, because certainly a sustained burn of a lot of mass is going to affect the orbit seriously. I was talking about tweaking back and forth of speeding up and slowing down largely canceling each other, which leaves only the changing mass to make the difference. I don't reckon MRM have a great deal of fuel/mass to give rise to significant changes in orbits.

[glitterboy2098]

the non-circular orbit does not matter. the tidal effect of the radius of the earth does not matter. the non-circular orbit does not matter because to an object orbiting earth, what the gravitational pull is like on the other side of earth orbit is a non-event. within the reference frame of earth orbit, the effect of the sun's gravity is the same, and the difference in the different bits of the orbit is actually less than the variation in an orbit due to rounding errors at insertion.
the tidal effects of the sun on the opposite sides of the earth is so minuscule that it basically is zero as far as orbital calculations are concerned.

and yes MRM's would be equipped with them. all missiles would be. gyroscopes are a required component in any missiles navigation system as a means of measuring it's attitude and direction. without them the missile cannot work. even the unguided missiles of rifts earth would have them because they can be programmed to fly specific course (as evidenced by how missiles can launch in one direct then swerve to go to the target's direction even if unguided)


and yes burning rocket fuel would allow the kind of minute velocity changes and course corrections. again, that is what we have in real life. it is just a question of controlling the amounts used and the rate of combustion. less fuel flow into the combustion chamber, the lower the thrust and thus the smaller the velocity change.
most dedicated space rockets have vernier thrusters (small rockets pointing in several different directions) to make it easier to do this. but you can do it with the throttle control on the main engine as well. in fact, most course corrections are done with the main engine.

and seriously natasha. .this is all stuff you can learn with maybe 1 minute on google. i learned it years ago before google even existed by going to a library and reading a few basic books on the space program.

[Killer Cyborg]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

Excellent point regarding teleporting somewhere.

But unfortunately we can't use the MRM as a launch vehicle. Ignoring effects of the sun, we need 11 km/s for launch from Earth. Launching from the equator helps but it's not enough.

Not as a launch vehicle--just to increase acceleration before teleportation.

[Killer Cyborg]

An issue with teleporting it into place is it's speed is NOT going to be where it needs to be by any margin, so you can't just *poof* it there it's going to require engines of some sort to accelerate it to the correct orbital velocity after you get it there if you want it to stay rather than immediately return to Earth and active engines would draw attention.

What does the speed need to be?

It's where centripetal force and gravity force are the same size, which means distance from Earth is the main factor. Since medium orbit is quite a large range, the minimum speed also has a large range. For simplicity, say 1 km/s.

Another method could use Kepler's second law of planetary motion.

for those that say "too high to be of use", i would point out that medium orbit is where most of our communications, navigation (including GPS), scientific, and surveillance satellites are IRL.
so basically it is the most useful orbital domain there is.

as for speed.. somewhere between 6,935 mph (3.2km/s, geostationary) and 18,342.88mph (8.2km/s, circular low orbit). counter intuitively, the velocity needed reduces as you get farther out. (makes sense when you think about the reduction of gravitational effect over distance.. the farther out you go the slower you need to go to be able to counteract the pull of gravity.)

From what I can determine, an object resting on the Earth's equator is already moving 1040 mph, or about 464.9216 meters per second.
If that object was accelerated in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, then I (with my admittedly limited grasp of physics) assume that the acceleration relative to the Earth would effectively add to that 1040 mph.
Is that correct?

If so, and if the goal is 1 km/s, that would (according to a handy speed conversion gizmo online) be about 2236.94 mph. So that would mean that you'd have to move about 1196.94 mph.
Medium Range Missiles move at 1200 MPH.
So if you can fit the satellite into a MRM, and you launch it along the equator to enhance the pre-existing speed from the Earth's rotation, then that might get the velocity needed.


On the other hand, I don't know if teleportation really works that way--I think it automatically compensates for local speed.
Because the Earth is a sphere, so different parts of it rotate at different speeds.
Rotation speed at the equator is 1040 mph, and rotation speed at one of the poles is about 0 mph.
But if you teleport from one of the poles to the equator, most GMs will just have you appear on the ground at whatever speed the ground is moving at locally, NOT have you instantly struck by a 1040 mph traveling tree, rock, or bystander.

Same to a lesser extent with lesser differences.
Teleport: Superior has a range of 300 miles per level, and even at first level if you teleported 300 miles north or 300 miles south of where you're standing, the Earth's rotation speed would be different... but I've never seen any GM or book address the changes in speed when landing, so I think it's safe to assume that your speed magically adjusts to match local speed when you magically appear in the new location.

Which means that teleporting into space will mean your going to match the local speeds.....so you teleported satellite will already be going orbital speeds (or near to it).
So it will just need some fine-tuning drives (either my proposed magical flight system, or some rocket motors, probably stripped off of some missiles)

That's how I'd handle it.

[Natasha]

the non-circular orbit does not matter. the tidal effect of the radius of the earth does not matter. the non-circular orbit does not matter because to an object orbiting earth, what the gravitational pull is like on the other side of earth orbit is a non-event. within the reference frame of earth orbit, the effect of the sun's gravity is the same, and the difference in the different bits of the orbit is actually less than the variation in an orbit due to rounding errors at insertion.
the tidal effects of the sun on the opposite sides of the earth is so minuscule that it basically is zero as far as orbital calculations are concerned.

and yes MRM's would be equipped with them. all missiles would be. gyroscopes are a required component in any missiles navigation system as a means of measuring it's attitude and direction. without them the missile cannot work. even the unguided missiles of rifts earth would have them because they can be programmed to fly specific course (as evidenced by how missiles can launch in one direct then swerve to go to the target's direction even if unguided)


and yes burning rocket fuel would allow the kind of minute velocity changes and course corrections. again, that is what we have in real life. it is just a question of controlling the amounts used and the rate of combustion. less fuel flow into the combustion chamber, the lower the thrust and thus the smaller the velocity change.
most dedicated space rockets have vernier thrusters (small rockets pointing in several different directions) to make it easier to do this. but you can do it with the throttle control on the main engine as well. in fact, most course corrections are done with the main engine.

and seriously natasha. .this is all stuff you can learn with maybe 1 minute on google.

So there's a little bit of miscommunications and I did misspeak. May this clear it up. If not, we're just going to have to move on I think. Much as I like talking about this stuff, the Moderation doesn't like me to, so I'll try my best not to be the one to get another thread locked.

The Sun's gravity has serious effects at the surface of Earth, which was the point of bringing up the tides; and if you wish to launch something into space beyond L1, you're going to need to do what I described. I forgot that we were talking about satellites and, of course, no satellite would ever go that far. That was real bone headed of me and I apologise for the mistake. You're correct, in the orbital frame, the Sun can be completely ignored.

So even unguided missiles in Rifts are guided. Ok. Fair enough. It's Rifts. It's just a difference of two letters.


As about rocket fuel. This is another misunderstanding. I'm not sure where things went screwy so I'll just try to rephrase it. Maybe it'll clear it up, maybe it won't. MRMs, I reckon, do not have a great deal of mass (and therefore cannot produce great deals of velocity change) in and of themselves plus their fuel to make significant changes to orbital paths. I could spend some time with momentum conservation to say more, but, ultimately, it doesn't matter to the discussion at hand and I don't think it's worth the time anyway. I came up with the 1km/s at medium orbit with just a few moments of thought. Turns out it was off but for use in the discussion not off by much. It's probably much the same case here.

I learn a lot of things with one minute on Google. Says nothing about whether its valid. Besides, I don't really need Google for this. The problem is not knowledge; it's the fact that I'm fallible.

[Killer Cyborg]

killer cyborg.. the target is not 1km/s

That was a number somebody tossed out there, so that's what I went with.
I understand that your numbers are different. The principle would be the same, though.

it's 8.2 km/s, or about 18,342.88mph. you need that to get out to medium orbit. for a higher orbit you reach that then slow down to closer to 3.1km/s to insert it into the orbit you want.

So that's 6934.503 or so?
THAT would be a lot trickier.
You could probably do it with TW enhancements to the missile, and a generous GM... because with TW enhancements and a generous GM, you can really do pretty much anything.

and yes the rotation of the earth can help give speed.. though given the CODF orbits opposite of the earths rotation, you'll actually want to send the rocket up in the same kind of counter-rotation orbit, so you'd actually have to add that velocity instead. a small price to pay to pass through the CODF debris at a slower relative speed and thus take less damage.

I was planning on teleporting it past the CODF, or on the under-side of it, not into the middle.
Unless the CODF covers up all possible satellite positions?

[ShadowLogan]

I'm curious what ideas folks have for this particular subject.

How would you go about placing a satellite into orbit and maintaining its orbit for an extended period of time (no greater than a year)?

All considerations about the state of Earth's orbit and the near Earth colonies would be as described in SA2, MiO, etc. For the sake of the thought experiment lets assume you have access to any resource listed in canon materials which originates on Earth. Let us assume the ability to use 3G and other Phaseworkd type tech is for whatever reason restricted and unavailable. Assume you'll have all the trouble associated with the countermeasures the near Earth colonies have placed including their ability to intercept and destroy satellites with their own spacecraft.

Any thoughts?

From a technology perspective you are likely looking at a something in the nano or pico-sattellite category, these would be very small and low mass. Which probably stands a better chance of escaping detection by the Orbitals than normal satellites.

You might also want to avoid traditional launchers (rocket), and trade it in for a high flying aircraft with a rail-gun type launcher. This would avoid any plumes from the launcher that the Orbitals might respond to (which is partly what SDI derived system would be looking for). The rail launcher would have to impart more than the Mach 5 (1.7kps) velocity of the Glitterboy's Boomgun. You'll still need to reach orbital velocity, so a "traditional" second stage might be required, though that increases chance of detection IMHO.

[Library Ogre]

From a technology perspective you are likely looking at a something in the nano or pico-sattellite category, these would be very small and low mass. Which probably stands a better chance of escaping detection by the Orbitals than normal satellites.

You might also want to avoid traditional launchers (rocket), and trade it in for a high flying aircraft with a rail-gun type launcher. This would avoid any plumes from the launcher that the Orbitals might respond to (which is partly what SDI derived system would be looking for). The rail launcher would have to impart more than the Mach 5 (1.7kps) velocity of the Glitterboy's Boomgun. You'll still need to reach orbital velocity, so a "traditional" second stage might be required, though that increases chance of detection IMHO.

Do you have definitions (or even rough categories) for nano and pico satellites? I'm just thinking, with Rifts tech, something like that might be the norm.

And as for the second stage booster on a rail-gun assisted launch, this is why I suggest launching several dummies at the same time. Imagine launching a few multi-warhead missiles at the same time, designed to blow chaff instead of explode. You rail launch your satellite, but it's accompanied by several noisy rocket-like missiles, that burst into several more rocket like missiles that, when destroyed, burst into signal chaff. Hitting the satellite at that point becomes very difficult... especially if the satellite is the size of a cell phone in an armored laptop.

[Natasha]

One of the things about rail guns is the longer the rails the larger the force that accelerates the armature. For the borg held ones you need a **** lot of power because rails are short. You can theoretically build a rail gun to shoot the moon.

[eliakon]

Also as I discussed in the MiO thread, there is a problem with the killer satellites as written.
Specifically by saying that the Triax transport has to fly below maximum altitude to avoid getting shot down we establish that flying at their maximum altitude is sufficient to be engaged.
that means that crossing the (as I recall) 18mile altitude threshold is sufficient to be shot down.
Thus any flying launch vehicle will have to be (some unknown amount) below that...

[glitterboy2098]

in regards to targeting, i'd assume the following criteria for kill sats, based on logic and the known info.

anything moving over about 3000mph (mach 4.5+) is going to attract notice (since that is 1.3km/s and high enough to get you to suborbital ballistic courses that bring you out of the atmosphere) but may or may not trigger retaliation unless it looks to on a course to leave the atmosphere.
anything that is under acceleration above 100,000ft will attract immediate notice and get target priority (as this would be the easiest way to ID a rocket or spacecraft heading up to orbit)
anything over 100,000ft of altitude will be flagged as a potential target.
anything leaving the atmosphere will automatically be flagged as a priority.

as far as sensors go..
Radar and thermal/IR would be the main ones. thermal/IR would be used over vislight because heat sources (IR) from rockets, friction from passing through the atmosphere, getting rid of waste heat from electronics, etc will stand out like spotlights in a dark room, and there is pretty much no way to hide it using tech.** the sensors can be set up to notice any moving sources and plot their paths and speeds by observing.
radar would only trigger for final aiming or to gather more info on a priority target before making a final "go/nogo" on firing.

**at least, barring handwave space opera tech like seen in phase world.. but even phase world's stealth tech probably wouldn't help here.. since their regular stuff doesn't hide from observers closer than a half light second out or so. so it might hide from observers on the moon, but the killsats would see clearly. phase fields might work but they are also a lot harder to get.

[Mack]

Also, I recommend liberal use of the spell Featherlight (preferably in a TW modification, of course).

[ShadowLogan]

Do you have definitions (or even rough categories) for nano and pico satellites? I'm just thinking, with Rifts tech, something like that might be the norm.

Wikipedia lists them by mass. Nano in the 1-10kg range, Pico in the 0.1-1kg. There is even a smaller size. So Rifts Earth shouldn't have a problem producing examples of said technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniaturized_satellite

And as for the second stage booster on a rail-gun assisted launch, this is why I suggest launching several dummies at the same time. Imagine launching a few multi-warhead missiles at the same time, designed to blow chaff instead of explode. You rail launch your satellite, but it's accompanied by several noisy rocket-like missiles, that burst into several more rocket like missiles that, when destroyed, burst into signal chaff. Hitting the satellite at that point becomes very difficult... especially if the satellite is the size of a cell phone in an armored laptop.

The 2nd stage booster may not be necessary, it all depends on how limited the rail-guns are in terms of imparting velocity. The Glitterboy's Boomgun is Mach 5 (RUE) at sea level, though theoretically it can go much higher. The question is if Rifts Earth powers can deliver that extra velocity from a Rail Gun. At 100k ft, there will be less air to retard velocity of the fired payload than at sea level.

One issue I have with trying to spoof the Orbitals is that they would be working with SDI derived technology, which would include things like discriminating against decoys and/or being able to handle a larger volume of traffic. The dummy missiles are only viable if they can get to a point to deliver the proper counter measure(s), they could be shot down before then. Or it could result in "reinforcements" being called in to assist.

[dragonfett]

If we can use any tech we find in the standard Rifts books (Mercenaries, for example), then we already have at least one launch vehicle that not only can get to speed, but also has sufficient speed for escape velocity. It is the Crescent Moon Delta-Wing Spaceplane sold by Naruni on page 139 of the Mercenaries books, and it is stated to have "stealth" systems that give it a -25% to all sensory detection rolls against it and it flies by contra-gravity generators. The book goes on to state that no one knows about its space capabilities simply because no one has had reason to try.

Combine the Crescent Moon with several sheets of the Naruni Camouflage Sheets, and you have yourself a vehicle that is hard to spot and get into space.

[Nightmask]

If we can use any tech we find in the standard Rifts books (Mercenaries, for example), then we already have at least one launch vehicle that not only can get to speed, but also has sufficient speed for escape velocity. It is the Crescent Moon Delta-Wing Spaceplane sold by Naruni on page 139 of the Mercenaries books, and it is stated to have "stealth" systems that give it a -25% to all sensory detection rolls against it and it flies by contra-gravity generators. The book goes on to state that no one knows about its space capabilities simply because no one has had reason to try.

Combine the Crescent Moon with several sheets of the Naruni Camouflage Sheets, and you have yourself a vehicle that is hard to spot and get into space.

You likely can't go and combine the two, just like you can't combine the laser-reflective armor coating with the stealth coating for spaceships.

Still, from what we know of Triax they tried a barrage of a variety of launch vehicles and probes so it's likely they tried the 'maybe if it's small enough they won't notice, especially if we have a bunch of big obvious things to distract anyone shooting them down' approach.

[Kagashi]

Teleport, whether into orbit or anywhere on the face of the planet, always takes local speeds into account. If it didnt and teleport brought you to a very specific place, then every teleport would have the object end up drifting in space as the Earth isnt in the same spot it was going around the sun, the sun is not in the same spot as it was going around the galaxy, and the galaxy isnt in the same spot it was when it was expanding across the universe.

[Riftmaker]

Salvage a shadow device from wrecked robo tech mecha and use that to get something up there past the4 defence grid.

[Mack]

Still, from what we know of Triax they tried a barrage of a variety of launch vehicles and probes so it's likely they tried the 'maybe if it's small enough they won't notice, especially if we have a bunch of big obvious things to distract anyone shooting them down' approach.

Can you give a page reference for that? Don't recall ever seeing it.

[Nightmask]

Still, from what we know of Triax they tried a barrage of a variety of launch vehicles and probes so it's likely they tried the 'maybe if it's small enough they won't notice, especially if we have a bunch of big obvious things to distract anyone shooting them down' approach.

Can you give a page reference for that? Don't recall ever seeing it.

Not sure which book it was in, I just remember it saying something around their last attempt was several decades at least prior with a titanic barrage of material that all failed and them having finally given up and laughing a bit at someone else's more recent failed attempt (maybe the CS ).

[ShadowLogan]

Salvage a shadow device from wrecked robo tech mecha and use that to get something up there past the4 defence grid.

That might help with the active satellites in terms of radar, but it won't help with regard to the passive Counter Orbit Debris or Optical based sensors.

[Riftmaker]

Salvage a shadow device from wrecked robo tech mecha and use that to get something up there past the4 defence grid.

That might help with the active satellites in terms of radar, but it won't help with regard to the passive Counter Orbit Debris or Optical based sensors.

Pretty much but they would always be an issue unless your teleporting a massive distance or something.

[Nightmask]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

[eliakon]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

Incorrect.
As I've pointed out, there's already reason to believe that an object's relative speed already matches local trajectory/speeds.
Otherwise, every time you teleported a few miles north or south, you'd be hit by a tree or a rock.

[Nightmask]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

Again, there is no reason why it should be orbital velocity. Just because the spell can handle minor adjustments while teleporting around on a planet or inside a spaceship doesn't mean it's capable of doing something it was never designed to do, namely take an object from a planet's surface and place it into perfect orbital velocity and direction in space.

[eliakon]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

Again, there is no reason why it should be orbital velocity. Just because the spell can handle minor adjustments while teleporting around on a planet or inside a spaceship doesn't mean it's capable of doing something it was never designed to do, namely take an object from a planet's surface and place it into perfect orbital velocity and direction in space.

In the PW books there is an explicit statement of people teleporting from a planets surface to the inside of ships in orbit.
Thus it has to be able to make sufficient adjustment for velocity that this is possible.
Ergo we can conclude that teleporting into space is possible.
Furthermore we can conclude that if you teleport into space from a rest you will be at the local 'rest speed' which implies orbital speeds.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

Again, there is no reason why it should be orbital velocity. Just because the spell can handle minor adjustments while teleporting around on a planet or inside a spaceship doesn't mean it's capable of doing something it was never designed to do, namely take an object from a planet's surface and place it into perfect orbital velocity and direction in space.

1. The fact that the spell can handle "minor" adjustments while teleporting on a planet shows that the spell takes local speed into account. There is no indication of any kind of limit to the speeds that it can take into account, so there is no real reason to assume one.
2. Do you have a specific source that describes what exactly the spell was and was not "designed to do?"

[Nightmask]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

Again, there is no reason why it should be orbital velocity. Just because the spell can handle minor adjustments while teleporting around on a planet or inside a spaceship doesn't mean it's capable of doing something it was never designed to do, namely take an object from a planet's surface and place it into perfect orbital velocity and direction in space.

In the PW books there is an explicit statement of people teleporting from a planets surface to the inside of ships in orbit.
Thus it has to be able to make sufficient adjustment for velocity that this is possible.
Ergo we can conclude that teleporting into space is possible.
Furthermore we can conclude that if you teleport into space from a rest you will be at the local 'rest speed' which implies orbital speeds.

That's teleporting from one fixed frame of reference to another, that's not the case if you're talking about some random, arbitrary point in space with no fixed frame of reference to adjust to. Seriously, you teleport something where there's nothing around for hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands of miles or more: so where's it supposed to adjust itself to? That spaceship a thousand miles away, that asteroid 475 miles away, the MOON which while hundreds of thousands of miles away is way more massive a reference choice than the ship or asteroid? You may WANT it so that it just conveniently adopts orbital velocity when teleporting into some random point in space where nothing's around but that's NOT actually explicit or implicit in the spell that it would or should work like that.

Also no 'rest' in space would not be orbital speeds, that's obviously NOT at rest that's clearly in motion and moving at way different speeds than previously.

[eliakon]

Thing is, teleporting into space there's zero reason to think it's going to make an object's relative speed be orbital velocity on the proper trajectory in order to settle neatly into orbit. Not without a spell tailored to that specific effect.

It should be orbital velocity, as there is nothing in the spell to suggest that momentum is maintained (since you don't instantly die when casting it).
Getting into the right trajectory and tweaking the speed is why you have engines.

Again, there is no reason why it should be orbital velocity. Just because the spell can handle minor adjustments while teleporting around on a planet or inside a spaceship doesn't mean it's capable of doing something it was never designed to do, namely take an object from a planet's surface and place it into perfect orbital velocity and direction in space.

In the PW books there is an explicit statement of people teleporting from a planets surface to the inside of ships in orbit.
Thus it has to be able to make sufficient adjustment for velocity that this is possible.
Ergo we can conclude that teleporting into space is possible.
Furthermore we can conclude that if you teleport into space from a rest you will be at the local 'rest speed' which implies orbital speeds.

That's teleporting from one fixed frame of reference to another, that's not the case if you're talking about some random, arbitrary point in space with no fixed frame of reference to adjust to. Seriously, you teleport something where there's nothing around for hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands of miles or more: so where's it supposed to adjust itself to? That spaceship a thousand miles away, that asteroid 475 miles away, the MOON which while hundreds of thousands of miles away is way more massive a reference choice than the ship or asteroid? You may WANT it so that it just conveniently adopts orbital velocity when teleporting into some random point in space where nothing's around but that's NOT actually explicit or implicit in the spell that it would or should work like that.

Also no 'rest' in space would not be orbital speeds, that's obviously NOT at rest that's clearly in motion and moving at way different speeds than previously.

Okay, I'll bite. What is the 'rest speed' in LEO?

[Natasha]

The spell is designed to move an object from Point A to Point B safely. That's about all we can say with certainty.

If B happens to be in a space ship, then they must have the orbital velocity or they will become a stain on the wall.

If B happens to be empty space, then there are two valid answers: they have the same velocity that they had on the surface or they have the orbital velocity. Technically, both are immediately safe. In the former, they will fall back to the surface if they do not accelerate to orbital velocity, but if they don't there is no immediate danger. The effects of immediate deceleration are safely ignored in all cases. Teleporting to medium Earth orbit means an immediate decleration from about 10 m/s/s to about 5 m/s/s.

Now with that said, there is a fixed reference frame at every orbit and it may be calculated. Put any object in that frame, then it has that frame's velocity (and we have violated the fundamental laws of physics, but we're doing that anyway with the fact of teleportation). The equation that yields the orbital velocity is derived directly from Newton's second law of motion.

I tend to agree that an object teleported into empty space will take on the orbital velocity. But I think either are valid and ultimately up to the Game Master decide.