Juicer life expectancy

[mobuttu]

As per RUE, we know that a juicer will die after five years and 4D6 months of being created. But to learn their skills and control their abilities a level 1 Juicer have had to train them for some time, don't they?

So, my question is this:

Is there any book where it is stated or is there any way to calculate how many time is left for a level 1 juicer, supposing it has passed some time from it's creation to the start of the his adventures? or to say it in another way, how many time passes between the juicer creation and him being a fully functional juicer with skills and such as stated in RUE book?

Thanks.

[Slight001]

Juicers train then get Juiced. See Juicer Assassin.

[mobuttu]

Juicers train then get Juiced. See Juicer Assassin.

Ah yes, ok. That makes sense.

Although there are several skills that clearly could only be learned while in Juicer form, such as Murtherthon or Flight system combat, don't they? (or they are maybe learned in a basic form prior to the juicer conversion?)

[Svartalf]

Slight is right... goods with a short shelf life like juicers have to be ready for use the moment they are recovered from the procedure, so giving them the necessary training BEFORE they undergo juicing is implied... the training period adds to the juicer's debt to his sponsor, of course.

[kaid]

I imagine there is at least a bit of training that happens after the conversion as well but pretty much anything they can train you to do before they would. The plus side is after the conversion a juicers raw physical prowess and speed can mask many things that training did not cover or covered minimally.

For things like the flight packs I am sure they were trained in the basic usage of them prior to the conversion and after the conversion their raw physical skills would make picking those sorts of things up pretty easy as long as they know the basics of how the instrumentation works and where all the basic controls are.

[Svartalf]

My guess is that some of the pre procedure training would be done with a JAPE systemm, so as to accustom them to what they'll be able to do once permanently juiced, and to avoid their hurting themselves before they get used to their new abilities, because they run into walls or the like.

[Alrik Vas]

5 years + 4D6 months? Hardly. The second you think you're invincible your life expectancy drops to about 5 minutes + 4D6 seconds.

[kaid]

Really if you look at the life expectancies listed in the NG-2 preview people going for juicer conversions makes a lot of sense. West of the Mississippi average life expectancy of 30 years old with people in some of the more prosperous areas average life expectancy being 35.

Really if you are not living in a big city or stablish area like the CS states/northern gun the juicers 5 or 6 years of power could very well be longer than you otherwise would have survived as you now have the physical agility and stamina to survive things you could not have otherwise.

Even for those who fully realize they are mortal given how young people die anyway they may not even see it as that much of a shortening of their life.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is, if you're in a community where the average life expectancy is 30, you're not living in a community with the tech or resources to make juicers. You have to 'go' to the bigger tech areas to pull it off. Even then as written the juicer process is very expensive, so most that undergo it end up in indentured servitude for two or three of those five or six years.

I actually hadn't read every page of the preview yet. Those life expectancies are... well as said, Frightfully low. I'm not sure I agree with them. Not for nothing but we've had life expectancies listed off already. If you open up Lone Star to page 68 you find this.

"A note about life expectancies and aging: The existing level of medicine combined with the use of cybernetics (mechanical and biosystems), nano-technology and medical treatment in the Coalition States provides the typical human citizen an average life span of 100-130 years (100-140 in Lazlo, 120-150 years in the NCR, and 140-200 years in the Republic of Japan), compared to an average life span of 45-90 years in the wilderness and "uncivilized" places (by CS standards, that's any place outside the States), even with medical and magical treatment. It is important to note, however, that this substantially lower range for life expectancy is largely due to the likelihood of premature death as the result of physical violence, murder, war, and disease. Another factor is the widely varying levels of technology (high and low), magic (high and low), comforts of life (from high to low), and exposure to intruding alien/D-bee bio-systems; from predators and disease to competing humanoids and alien animals. Life outside the Coalition States (and actually, we really mean life outside the Coalition Cities) is full of hardships that physically and mentally wears one down."

*Winces* I like Matt's work, but apparently he didn't research (Or missed it) before he typed up his life expectancy thing. "30-35" is a far stretch from "45-90". I mean... a far stretch. It's saying that in NG it's a mystical 70, but the previous indication said that even people in the wilderness could hit 45-90. People in NG would be around or a bit lower than people in the cs, who's average citizens hit 100-130.

The part in the preview stats that people in the CS hit 75+2D6, but that's not right either. Lone Star tells us it's 100-130. You can't even hit 100 with 75+2D6. You get to 97. Which is close but that's the 'outlier' for the new estimate. Lone Star tells us the average person in the CS lives to 10-130. It says even recently smaller places like Kingsdale, people live to 130. NG is at least equal to them.

It goes on to point out prior to rifts, that people lived to 200. And that the CS High command have access to that tech.

I hate to say it, but the section in the preview, is just... "Off" by what we've had in Canon (and not a blurb but pages with explanations medical and magical) for 17 YEARS.

Now.. I don't blame authors for not knowing every small detail. There's 50+ Rifts books, but this was covered in detail, with explanation before hand.

[Svartalf]

Just shows the stellar work from the editors...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Personally, I veiw the typical juicer conversion process, presuming one goes for a period of service with a petty kingdom/large mercenary outfit, to be something along the lines of the following.

Typical boot camp/training camp for soldiers/mercenaries of that kingdom/group

8-12 months of additional training in prepreation for conversion, to ensure you have the skills to hit the ground running

4 weeks convelesence as your body adjusts. Logically, the juicer conversion process cannot be instanaious as soon as the implants are in. your bio-comp needs time to study and learn your particular body and how to maximize it's operation, and your muscles simply need time to grow, even with super steroids being injected. This includes as series of training exerises designed to both maximize the speed your muscles develop at, as well as training you in becoming confident in your new abilities.

And as soon as the cyber-doc clears that your body has fully developed and you have control over your new reflexes, you start your period of indentured service, typically 2-3 years with the option to renew to 4-5 years.

some parts of this, especially the traning, may be cut short due to prior experiance (an already trained mercenary deciding to juice up, for example, can skip most of the remedial courses.).

naturally, Shady cyber docs/crime syndicates may cut a lot of safety/training margins razor thin, but they are unlikely to stray too far. after all, the implants and chemical coctails is EXPENSIVE. Your indentured servant can't give any value back if his heart bursts one month in because you cut too many corners, after all.

[Mack]

Just shows the stellar work from the editors...

Or a deliberate RetCon.

[Svartalf]

Just shows the stellar work from the editors...

Or a deliberate RetCon.

More stellar work... a deliberate retcon ought to make itself known to make it clear just what book takes precedence. Not to do so is to invite a lot of empty disputes .

[Mack]

Just shows the stellar work from the editors...

Or a deliberate RetCon.

More stellar work... a deliberate retcon ought to make itself known to make it clear just what book takes precedence. Not to do so is to invite a lot of empty disputes .

Pfft. It's Rifts. Think of how bored we'd be without the empty disputes!!

[Svartalf]

You win, I spend more time discussing the games by PB than playing them, especially since december when my play by chat PFRPG game dissolved due to the GM not being able to continue

[kaid]

Actually the life expectancies probably are reasonable but with all numbers of that sort the thing that skews the hell out of the numbers is infant mortality rates. With lack of medical care alone many children never see their second birthday. Now add in diseases/threats from other worlds/dimensions and the numbers they are talking about make a lot of sense. Basically the places with reasonable lifespans are ones that also have reasonable access to health care. Even for the CS burbs the CS has some incentive to disperse medicines at least to prevent plague outbreaks as you would want to knock down the potential for cross infections jumping into the enclosed arcology of the fortress cities.

Also the differences in lifespans could be overall life expectancy and actual personal life expectancy. Overall the number tends to be much lower because of aforementioned infant mortality rates. If one set of numbers is looking at that and the other is looking at how long if you make it past childhood you are likely to live both numbers could be accurate. lies, damn lies and statistics and all that.

[Nightmask]

There's also the Juicer Wannabe OCC, people who want to be Juicers but can't afford it so have a somewhat more limited skill selection than a regular Juicer BUT after they become a Juicer they go directly to their current level as a Wannabe to Juicer level and opens up the skills available to a true Juicer as well. So a 6th level wannabe becomes a 6th level Juicer, so it's possible to get some good leveling up time in prior to becoming a Juicer.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Actually the life expectancies probably are reasonable but with all numbers of that sort the thing that skews the hell out of the numbers is infant mortality rates. With lack of medical care alone many children never see their second birthday. Now add in diseases/threats from other worlds/dimensions and the numbers they are talking about make a lot of sense. Basically the places with reasonable lifespans are ones that also have reasonable access to health care. Even for the CS burbs the CS has some incentive to disperse medicines at least to prevent plague outbreaks as you would want to knock down the potential for cross infections jumping into the enclosed arcology of the fortress cities.

Also the differences in lifespans could be overall life expectancy and actual personal life expectancy. Overall the number tends to be much lower because of aforementioned infant mortality rates. If one set of numbers is looking at that and the other is looking at how long if you make it past childhood you are likely to live both numbers could be accurate. lies, damn lies and statistics and all that.

That doesn't address the huge discrepency between the numbers we were given, in a section specificly labled "Longevity", with details as to why people here and there had life spans as long as they did, and then the information in the preview which is a third or fourth of those lengths in some cases. (30 vs 90, 97 vs 130/200. etc).

If the ages had gone 'up' as the CS reclaims more space, or medical proceedures become easier for the poor to access it'd be one thing to go 'ok time has passed'.

In this case we have the Lone Star book specificly stating the typical CS citizen can expect to live to be 130, and this carries over to other tech places such as Kingsdale. Yet the NG book puts it at 97 at the max. That's a step back of 1/4th, not forward.

Sadly I don't think this is a retacon. I think this was "I didn't know they were already given up, and based the 'new' numbers on "Post apoc setting".

Thing is, that was already factored in to the 'Old" numbers. As was premature death. " It is important to note, however, that this substantially lower range for life expectancy is largely due to the likelihood of premature death as the result of physical violence, murder, war, and disease."

So the old numbers plugged in "Holy crap it's dangerous out there with monsters and dragons and tigers oh my!" along with "yes but now we can rebuild him. We have the technology" and advanced medicine... and came out with the numbers we got in 97.

There's nothing to change the numbers from 45-90 to 30-35.

One could hope that the discrepancy could be pointed out to someone at Palladium so it could be fixed before print.... but..... I don't think that'll happen. If we're seeing it in the preview, that part's already blocked and isn't subject to change.

[Tor]

Be elf, become level 15 Wannabe, study some other OCCs, join Death Cult as you near death ~500 years old, become Murder Wraith.

I guess True Atlanteans, in spite of being able to become Juicers, probably can't become Murder Wraiths. I'm really not certain though, always been fuzzy on what their transformation immunity covers.

Like could a TA necromancer attach limbs to himself? Cast that vampire ritual?

[PSI-Lence]

you could say that most of the training is done before hand and unless you roll 4 6's for 7 years total the extra time they could have rolled could be the time they needed to finish training/healing

as for general age even if it was just a mistake (which doesn't seem off by *that* much to me)
it's easy to write off the CS had a huge war so the soldiers that died would lower the average age of death for the CS (same for tolkeen lowering the average age of death outside the CS) before CWC the CS never used juicers, and after a few years even juicers that didn't get killed would burn out and lower the average age of death

the mas influx of refugees into the CS states could tax the health care of burb city's (also if patrol's in the burbs didn't increase you have larger populations and less enforcement meaning more crime/death) people from farther towns probably would not make the trip unless they are in good health , and probably armed (meaning people they left back home could be sick and unarmed) but may decide to head to CS states/citys while they can

going back to the CS juicers from what i remember , most were recruited from burb residents and their family's promised entrance to CS city's for their service, people who could have had a hard life before being let in, and die sooner, or have some incurable illness (or as less desirable residents they might "disappear")

hell the CS could decide that a younger population suits them better (less strain on health care, greater percentage of their life spent working or military age, and wont be as likely to learn to read or teach others too with all the time retirement brings) and introduce some engineered illness , or just lower the standard of healthcare given to all but the elite

now most likely the states were just forgotten or unknown and new ones were printed up, but if you look at stats from 20 years ago you'll likely see some noticeable differences but probably not the cause

[Shorty Lickens]

You need to be fit and healthy and relatively young to take on the Juicer augmentation. But theres nothing that says you couldnt have been a merc or scholar before-hand.

In theory you could even be a mage or psychic and still get the juicer implants, but most people with such power would not even consider it unless that was their only chance at survival after some horrid accident.

[Slight001]

In theory you could even be a mage or psychic and still get the juicer implants, but most people with such power would not even consider it unless that was their only chance at survival after some horrid accident.

Depends upon the GM... I've had them claim that a Juicers implants alone are enough to wipeout any psionic or magical abilities they might have had.

[Shorty Lickens]

In theory you could even be a mage or psychic and still get the juicer implants, but most people with such power would not even consider it unless that was their only chance at survival after some horrid accident.

Depends upon the GM... I've had them claim that a Juicers implants alone are enough to wipeout any psionic or magical abilities they might have had.

thats not a depends.
They do lose their powers.


Thats what I was saying.

[Nightmask]

In theory you could even be a mage or psychic and still get the juicer implants, but most people with such power would not even consider it unless that was their only chance at survival after some horrid accident.

Depends upon the GM... I've had them claim that a Juicers implants alone are enough to wipeout any psionic or magical abilities they might have had.

They've already addressed that somewhere, and no the implants don't wipe out all psionic or magical ability (there are only two cybernetic implants involved, it's not even remotely a heavy conversion) they retain the same limited ability as any other psychic or magical character who gets a few minor implants.

[flatline]

If the average life expectancy in the CS is 130 years, that means for every soldier killed at 20, 5.5 people have to live to be 150.

I don't think 130 can be the average life expectancy.

I think it' more likely that people in the CS can live up to 130, but that's very different than saying the average life expectancy for the population is 130 years.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

If the average life expectancy in the CS is 130 years, that means for every soldier killed at 20, 5.5 people have to live to be 150.

I don't think 130 can be the average life expectancy.

I think it' more likely that people in the CS can live up to 130, but that's very different than saying the average life expectancy for the population is 130 years.

--flatline

Maybe there's ONE guy who really, really, blows the curve?

[Svartalf]

and his name might be Prosek?

[eliakon]

and his name might be Prosek?

Julian the First comes to mind as well

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pretty sure they don't get citizenship till after their tours of duty are done. Those many that sign up to get citizenship that is.

I.E. The army's deaths don't blow the curve because most of them aren't citizens till after they're out of the army anyway.

Or that the 'average' life expectancy is based on not being in the front line army. If you look at the average life expectancy in the US it's likely going to be higher than the average life expectancy of a front line US combat troop.

Remember, in the write up it uses life expectancy for the "Typical" CS citizen. Not the a-typical ones. (Proseks, high command etc) They're addressed separately.

"The existing level of medicine combined with the use of cybernetics (mechanical and biosystems), nano-technology and medical treatment in the Coalition States provides the typical human citizen an average life span of 100-130 years"

It could be that they're defining "Typical human citizen" as a defining characteristic. I.E. "The TYPICAL HUMAN CITIZENS" live to 100-130, but the "TYPICAL CS ARMY TROOP" have a different number.

[PSI-Lence]

Pretty sure they don't get citizenship till after their tours of duty are done. Those many that sign up to get citizenship that is.

I.E. The army's deaths don't blow the curve because most of them aren't citizens till after they're out of the army anyway.

Or that the 'average' life expectancy is based on not being in the front line army. If you look at the average life expectancy in the US it's likely going to be higher than the average life expectancy of a front line US combat troop.

Remember, in the write up it uses life expectancy for the "Typical" CS citizen. Not the a-typical ones. (Proseks, high command etc) They're addressed separately.

"The existing level of medicine combined with the use of cybernetics (mechanical and biosystems), nano-technology and medical treatment in the Coalition States provides the typical human citizen an average life span of 100-130 years"

It could be that they're defining "Typical human citizen" as a defining characteristic. I.E. "The TYPICAL HUMAN CITIZENS" live to 100-130, but the "TYPICAL CS ARMY TROOP" have a different number.

CS juicers might not get full citizenship till later but i was pretty sure the family's did , either way any non cs citizen that becomes a citizen probably has a shorter than 'average' life expectancy (illnesses, defects etc left untreated for years before becoming a citizen even if cured/corrected would have already done damage and effected the life expectancy of the individual)

regular army would still be considered a citizen i'm pretty sure , so for every grunt, samas or technical officer that get's eaten by a dragon will throw the curve the CS would not be just outsourcing an entire army , the only reason i even remember them using juicers was because they were only brought in to become juicers in exchange for citizenship so they were not citizens before and thus didn't really matter if they died or not (undesirable element)

even in the states being in the army doesn't mean you cease to be a citizen and so your stats (age, race etc) are taken into account for the 'average' citizen

[Shark_Force]

considering the ridiculous percentage of the CS population that needs to be in the army for them to field multiple millions of troops, i don't think we can make the statement that the canonical "typical" CS citizen is not military.

i mean, they've got something like an estimated 15 million people. their military is something crazy, we don't know exactly how much, but we *do* know that something like 1.5 million humans were sent to tolkeen at some point or another iirc, and i seem to recall something close to 1 million at a given time between the tolkeen and FQ fronts. and we can also reasonably presume that they didn't just empty out every single garrison in the CS to go to war with tolkeen. if we presume that they kept back even 1 million soldiers of assorted varieties to protect their borders (which seems low if they felt that they needed 1 million soldiers just to invade tolkeen, which is a tiny front, when their borders are comparatively huge and they have several equally dangerous if not more dangerous enemies in various other locations), that means we're up to 2 million soldiers.

then, we have to figure that the ISS is not included in those numbers. and were assigned 1.6 million SAMAS which is not standard issue. if we presume that they were "only" assigned 1 SAMAS per member (bearing in mind that they don't need them constantly, as it isn't part of their standard equipment - merely a piece of equipment available to them should they need it, so there is a fairly minimal need for backup suits considering the suits themselves are essentially a backup piece of equipment already), that brings us up to about 3.5 million people as some form of soldiers.

and that's just soldiers. that's not counting military doctors, cooks, mechanics, delivery truck drivers, etc. now, a modern army needs something like 3 people performing various tasks for every soldier. let's suppose the CS has some sort of super-efficient system, and they only need 1 person to support every soldier.

that puts about 7 million people in the army, based on what we know, given what i figure are some fairly conservative estimates.

and an estimated 15 million or so citizens last i heard. quite frankly, given the numbers the books are throwing at us, the average CS citizen IS probably directly employed by the military, with most of the rest of them being employed by the CS military indirectly (eg working in a factory that produces military goods).

so ummm... yeah. it's pretty average to be some form of soldier or officer in the CS. in fact, given what we know of the CS, i'd say the people who aren't working for the military either directly or indirectly are pretty much the definition of a CS citizen that is *not* average.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I agree that the entire CS society is built up and around supporting the military, but just because you're in an industry that supports the military it doesn't make you military. If you work in a munitions factory it doesn't mean you're an Army troop. If you are a cyber-doc, putting bionic arms on the wounded back from war, you don't have to be in the military. If you're growing their genetically engineered super-cows, to feed those millions of troops, that doesn't some how bestow an officer's rank on you. You're just a farmer.

I fully, -fully- agree that huge huge swaths of the CS are -directly- built around supporting their enormous military machine. It's just not that everyone that contributes is 'in' the military.

I fully agree that the percentage of people in the military in the cs is more like 1 in 5, than 1 in 300 like it is in our country, but even a 1 in 5 doesn't put it at 'most people are in the military.


As for military being 'citizens', it depends. If you're born and grew up in the upper levels of Chi town and join up then sure you're a citizen already, but most of their army troops come from those "Trying" to 'become' citizens. I.E. Recruited nad taken in from out side. They and their families are not given citizenship till their tours of duty are done, and even then it's implyed the CS can put forth so much red tape and stuff that it's not guaranteed.

[PSI-Lence]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

[guardiandashi]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

the last time I read it and granted I skimmed over parts but the way I read the sign up for citizenship deal was kind of like this:
bob and his family come to the coalition city to get off the farm out of the wastelands etc.
the "recruiters" at a checkpoint check them over not mutant, mage, or dbee and give them a speel something like: " ok your family is prospective citizens, right now the waiting list is 10 years, to get the slots for your family, but if one of you chooses to sign up .... I can put the rest on the "preferred list" for dependents of a soldier and right now that list is only (looks) 9 months for a 2 year term, or 6 months for a 4 year term, etc.

[Svartalf]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

the last time I read it and granted I skimmed over parts but the way I read the sign up for citizenship deal was kind of like this:
bob and his family come to the coalition city to get off the farm out of the wastelands etc.
the "recruiters" at a checkpoint check them over not mutant, mage, or dbee and give them a speel something like: " ok your family is prospective citizens, right now the waiting list is 10 years, to get the slots for your family, but if one of you chooses to sign up .... I can put the rest on the "preferred list" for dependents of a soldier and right now that list is only (looks) 9 months for a 2 year term, or 6 months for a 4 year term, etc.

That looks like I understood things

[guardiandashi]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

the last time I read it and granted I skimmed over parts but the way I read the sign up for citizenship deal was kind of like this:
bob and his family come to the coalition city to get off the farm out of the wastelands etc.
the "recruiters" at a checkpoint check them over not mutant, mage, or dbee and give them a speel something like: " ok your family is prospective citizens, right now the waiting list is 10 years, to get the slots for your family, but if one of you chooses to sign up .... I can put the rest on the "preferred list" for dependents of a soldier and right now that list is only (looks) 9 months for a 2 year term, or 6 months for a 4 year term, etc.

That looks like I understood things

of course if they are anything like todays recruiters they may not mention all the items that have to be done to successfully complete a term, or other drawbacks that may occur while they are waiting for their slot(s) to come up.

[PSI-Lence]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

the last time I read it and granted I skimmed over parts but the way I read the sign up for citizenship deal was kind of like this:
bob and his family come to the coalition city to get off the farm out of the wastelands etc.
the "recruiters" at a checkpoint check them over not mutant, mage, or dbee and give them a speel something like: " ok your family is prospective citizens, right now the waiting list is 10 years, to get the slots for your family, but if one of you chooses to sign up .... I can put the rest on the "preferred list" for dependents of a soldier and right now that list is only (looks) 9 months for a 2 year term, or 6 months for a 4 year term, etc.

That looks like I understood things

of course if they are anything like todays recruiters they may not mention all the items that have to be done to successfully complete a term, or other drawbacks that may occur while they are waiting for their slot(s) to come up.

i always read it as 'join the army and become a citizen, and after x amount of time your family can join you as citizens' but then i only just found out that americans allow non citizens to join the army which seems insane to me

[guardiandashi]

well if you think 1 in 5 are in active duty that means probably twice that number are retired or not of age to serve yet and so have had or will have a military roll

maybe it is said somewhere but i was under the impression that joining the army in the CS was something that many did in exchange for citizenship and would never allow non citizens in the army especially to any large degree

the last time I read it and granted I skimmed over parts but the way I read the sign up for citizenship deal was kind of like this:
bob and his family come to the coalition city to get off the farm out of the wastelands etc.
the "recruiters" at a checkpoint check them over not mutant, mage, or dbee and give them a speel something like: " ok your family is prospective citizens, right now the waiting list is 10 years, to get the slots for your family, but if one of you chooses to sign up .... I can put the rest on the "preferred list" for dependents of a soldier and right now that list is only (looks) 9 months for a 2 year term, or 6 months for a 4 year term, etc.

That looks like I understood things

of course if they are anything like todays recruiters they may not mention all the items that have to be done to successfully complete a term, or other drawbacks that may occur while they are waiting for their slot(s) to come up.

i always read it as 'join the army and become a citizen, and after x amount of time your family can join you as citizens' but then i only just found out that americans allow non citizens to join the army which seems insane to me

America has had a long history (if you count ~100 years plus) of allowing military service to be a fast track to citizenship actually

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yep. And remember that the SoT, while thousands and thousands and thousands of CS troops died, they ended up with very small 'hits' to their military 'might' over all due to the majority of those that died, being new recruits swept in from the burbs, and such. It served 3 purposes. 1) Troops in the field, boots on the ground, pulling triggers. 2) Allowed the CS to preserve the bulk of it's military power and not be understaffed at the end of the war and 3) Got thousands and thousands out of the burbs and when they died.. less mouths to feed.

The CS basically rolled the poor burbs boys and girls into the field as cannon fodder (if you can count MDC armor and weapons as Canon fodder) and preserved their over all military strength in doing so.

This is canon. it's said straight up in Aftermath.

Those that fought in the war and survived the war, are now hardened veterans. Worth their weight and are experienced troops now.


As stated above though, yeah, you sign up to try and get citizenship, for yourself and your family fast tracked, but like pretty much any society that does such, you don't get the rewards "First" you get them at the --end-- of your term, be it 4 years.. 6.. 10... 20.. what ever, and also like pointed out, Recruiters have histories 100s if not 1000s of years long about lieing about the benefits and perks. If you don't hit all the right hoops and what not, you could put in5 or 10 years in the CS, only to find out you didn't divulge your aunt Sally was a mage and thus be blackballed. Or you could put in 5 or 10 years and at the end, find out that ... you signed up during the Tolkeen war, and due to the masses that signed up then, you only are rated for partial benefits.... or you sign up and your family is killed by a Neuron beast while you're down in Lone Star fighting bandits.

The CS needs people, so they aren't going to screw --everyone--, but they have so many that want in, that they CAN choose and be picky if/when they wannabe. After all there's 500 people behind you in line that would kill their mother for a shot at living in a super city. They don't have to put up with any crap.

[PSI-Lence]

Yep. And remember that the SoT, while thousands and thousands and thousands of CS troops died, they ended up with very small 'hits' to their military 'might' over all due to the majority of those that died, being new recruits swept in from the burbs, and such. It served 3 purposes. 1) Troops in the field, boots on the ground, pulling triggers. 2) Allowed the CS to preserve the bulk of it's military power and not be understaffed at the end of the war and 3) Got thousands and thousands out of the burbs and when they died.. less mouths to feed.

The CS basically rolled the poor burbs boys and girls into the field as cannon fodder (if you can count MDC armor and weapons as Canon fodder) and preserved their over all military strength in doing so.

This is canon. it's said straight up in Aftermath.

Those that fought in the war and survived the war, are now hardened veterans. Worth their weight and are experienced troops now.


As stated above though, yeah, you sign up to try and get citizenship, for yourself and your family fast tracked, but like pretty much any society that does such, you don't get the rewards "First" you get them at the --end-- of your term, be it 4 years.. 6.. 10... 20.. what ever, and also like pointed out, Recruiters have histories 100s if not 1000s of years long about lieing about the benefits and perks. If you don't hit all the right hoops and what not, you could put in5 or 10 years in the CS, only to find out you didn't divulge your aunt Sally was a mage and thus be blackballed. Or you could put in 5 or 10 years and at the end, find out that ... you signed up during the Tolkeen war, and due to the masses that signed up then, you only are rated for partial benefits.... or you sign up and your family is killed by a Neuron beast while you're down in Lone Star fighting bandits.

The CS needs people, so they aren't going to screw --everyone--, but they have so many that want in, that they CAN choose and be picky if/when they wannabe. After all there's 500 people behind you in line that would kill their mother for a shot at living in a super city. They don't have to put up with any crap.

well ok i am behind the times, i bought but still haven't read the first two SoT books.

at least the juicers recruited from the burbs had deliberate failsafes in the explosives implanted, when even a grunt with an MD pistol could wipe out dozens of soldiers not wearing armor (sleeping, showers , mess hall etc) i figured even the CS would be pickier ad force citizen ship tests etc before joining (still using new recruits as front line assault and suicide missions , not admitting the family till after service, or 'disappearing' people afterwards)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yep. And remember that the SoT, while thousands and thousands and thousands of CS troops died, they ended up with very small 'hits' to their military 'might' over all due to the majority of those that died, being new recruits swept in from the burbs, and such. It served 3 purposes. 1) Troops in the field, boots on the ground, pulling triggers. 2) Allowed the CS to preserve the bulk of it's military power and not be understaffed at the end of the war and 3) Got thousands and thousands out of the burbs and when they died.. less mouths to feed.

The CS basically rolled the poor burbs boys and girls into the field as cannon fodder (if you can count MDC armor and weapons as Canon fodder) and preserved their over all military strength in doing so.

This is canon. it's said straight up in Aftermath.

Those that fought in the war and survived the war, are now hardened veterans. Worth their weight and are experienced troops now.


As stated above though, yeah, you sign up to try and get citizenship, for yourself and your family fast tracked, but like pretty much any society that does such, you don't get the rewards "First" you get them at the --end-- of your term, be it 4 years.. 6.. 10... 20.. what ever, and also like pointed out, Recruiters have histories 100s if not 1000s of years long about lieing about the benefits and perks. If you don't hit all the right hoops and what not, you could put in5 or 10 years in the CS, only to find out you didn't divulge your aunt Sally was a mage and thus be blackballed. Or you could put in 5 or 10 years and at the end, find out that ... you signed up during the Tolkeen war, and due to the masses that signed up then, you only are rated for partial benefits.... or you sign up and your family is killed by a Neuron beast while you're down in Lone Star fighting bandits.

The CS needs people, so they aren't going to screw --everyone--, but they have so many that want in, that they CAN choose and be picky if/when they wannabe. After all there's 500 people behind you in line that would kill their mother for a shot at living in a super city. They don't have to put up with any crap.

well ok i am behind the times, i bought but still haven't read the first two SoT books.

at least the juicers recruited from the burbs had deliberate failsafes in the explosives implanted, when even a grunt with an MD pistol could wipe out dozens of soldiers not wearing armor (sleeping, showers , mess hall etc) i figured even the CS would be pickier ad force citizen ship tests etc before joining (still using new recruits as front line assault and suicide missions , not admitting the family till after service, or 'disappearing' people afterwards)

I'm sure they have some sort of intake testing, but remember it need not be a form with 500 questions. They could just have a potential recruit walk in and sit down with a mind melter from Psi-bat. 10 minutes of basic questions and on to the next potential recruit. Anyone actively resisting or using psionics to hide stuff gets shunted off to a 'different' room, or the like. They very much likely tell the recruits before they go in "We've got psychics that are going to check you out. If YOU are psionic, let us know! You could get BONUS money, perks and stuff in Psi-bat. Lie to us, and the mind readers find out... and they will find out... and you get the perk of doing time in the CS penal system."

Determining loyalties is alot easier when rather large percentages of the population are psionic and you have specialized troops for such things. A few dog boys in the room to detect if anything squirrly is going on during the test and you're good ta go.

is it 100% fool proof? no. Course not. It's going to weed out the vast majority of that sort of problem though. And that's just with 5 seconds thought. If I were to really put my mind to it I could come up with some more intense sort of tests.

The CS has lived through the dark ages. Crawled up from the nadir of despair to become the biggest technological human presence on this side of the planet. They've had literal 100s of years to think real hard on stuff, like sleepers signing up for the military to get ahold of MD weapons and stuff.

[Razzinold]

Back in the day when we first started playing our take was this. You trained before being converted to prep you for your new life as a Juicer. Once you healed from the conversion process you trained some more and after that your remaining time left was the 5 years + 4d6. So in our version yes you lived longer than canon rules but you don't actually get to play longer because you don't role play the training. You took over the minute you left the training place.

[Slight001]

Doesn't cannon say a Juicer can live for up to 8 years?

[Svartalf]

5 yr + 4d6 months, so 7 years at most.

[Slight001]

5 yr + 4d6 months, so 7 years at most.

Not that. I'm talking about the fluff... I seem to recall the fluff saying a Juicer can live up to 8 years... which is not 5+4d6.

Ah found it, RUE page 79. "The price of Physical and, to a lesser degree, emotional perfection. Without exceptions, a Juicer over five years old (as a Juicer) will die of a stroke or heart failure before his eighth year of service."

While that is accurate to the concept of the 5+4D6 which tops out at 7 it isn't quite the same as 8.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well not trying to be nit picky but "Before his 8th year of service" isn't 8 either. It's "before 8"

[Shorty Lickens]

I think the 5+4d6 is a rough average for PC's, while 8 is like the extreme max ever known.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thing is the biggest named juicer in cannon is well past Last Call. Inexplicably.

[Shorty Lickens]

theres always gotta be someone special.

Lou Gherigs disease is supposed to kill in under a couple years. Steven Hawking has had it for decades.

[Nightmask]

5 yr + 4d6 months, so 7 years at most.

Not that. I'm talking about the fluff... I seem to recall the fluff saying a Juicer can live up to 8 years... which is not 5+4d6.

Ah found it, RUE page 79. "The price of Physical and, to a lesser degree, emotional perfection. Without exceptions, a Juicer over five years old (as a Juicer) will die of a stroke or heart failure before his eighth year of service."

While that is accurate to the concept of the 5+4D6 which tops out at 7 it isn't quite the same as 8.

That descriptive text doesn't say they can live up to 8 years, it says they're certain to die before they get in 8 years, so max of 7 years. Mind you that's for a normal Juicer, some can live longer than that because they aren't quite normal humans.