Prysus wrote:[justify]Killer Cyborg wrote:Some people play that ONLY abilities/skills/effects that specifically mention increasing ROF actually affect ROF, but PFRPG p. 59 states:
Note: The long bow is exclusive to the Long Bowman and Ranger OCCs. Skilled archers who are NOT long bowmen can use the weapon but find it awkward, all bonuses to strike are half, and the rate of fire is equal to the archer's normal hand to hand attacks per melee (no bonus shots from the WP).
IF a group plays that bonus attacks from speed and other effects do not stack with ROF, then you end up with a situation where somebody who specializes in the long bow has a ROF of 2 at first level, but somebody who has zero special training with the weapon, who finds it "awkward" and who loses half their strike bonuses with the weapon, gets a ROF of 4-5 on average.
Which does not make any sense.
Greetings and Salutations. I agree, for the most part. I've never liked that statement either. Still, with that said, your argument is based upon Rifts, even though you're quoting PF2. That is where there is a logic break down.
I disagree.
In PF2, I don't believe you'll find any note of two attacks for living or two attacks for being a hero (if you do find it, let me know, but I don't know of it mentioned anywhere in the book).
I don't believe you'll find any such note in Rifts either.
What you'll find in both books are passages that are remarkably similar:
Rifts, 37
All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee pluss hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions.
PFRPG2, 48
Most player characters start off with two attacks per 15 second melee round. Additional attacks may be acquired as one advances in hand to hand combat experience and from the boxing skill, special bonuses or magic.
People took the Rifts passage to mean that PCs started off with 4 attacks per melee (2 base attacks mentioned there, plus 2 attacks from the base of the hand to hand combat skills), but it never meant that.
It simply assumes that PCs and NPCs are going to have HTH basic, expert, or martial arts, and refers to the "two attacks per melee to start" that these HTH forms provide.
There was much argument about it, which is why the PFRPG2 passage has been clarified a bit, even though it says the same thing.
With Rifts, some time around the Atlantis book, Palladium suddenly upped everybody's attacks by 2, the dreaded "two attacks for living."
They did not explain this. They did not mention that they were doing it.
Maryann and other staffers claimed that it was always this way.
When asked why every single NPC, sample character, and sample combat lacked those extra two attacks per melee, their response was "Not every NPC is created by the same rules used to generate player characters" (or words to that effect).
I finally got an official explanation from Kevin at GenCon 2005:
He was a fan of boxing, and noticed that people get off a lot more than just 2 attacks per 15 seconds of combat, so he changed the rules.
I asked him about the responses from Maryann and other staffers, and he said: "That doesn't make any sense."
Things were officially changed in the RGMG, not by including +2 attacks for PCs or for character in general, but simply by increasing the base number of attacks for the various HTH forms.
With Palladium's Fantasy setting, as in Rifts before the RGMG, there has been no mention that I know of of those additional two attacks.
As with Rifts, this does not mean that they have not been introduced.
LoB 59
Ondemere the White is an elven wizard (8th level) with HTH Expert and 5 attacks per melee.
HTH Expert only provides a total of three attacks per melee by level 8 (PFRPG2 47), two short of his total.
Nyodo Skatelin, 7th level Priest of Light with HTH Basic, also has 5 attacks per melee.
HTH Basic only provides 3 attacks per melee by level 7, two short of his total.
P. 60
Galathan of the Gate is a 9th level knight with HTH Martial Arts and Boxing.
He has 7 attacks per melee.
HTH Martial Arts provides 4 attacks per melee by 9th level, Boxing provides +1 attack for a total of 5, which is two short of his total number of attacks.
P. 61
Sanister Lenox is a 7th level diabolist with HTH Basic and 5 attacks per melee. Again, +2 attacks over where his HTH skill would place him.
But here's the REALLY fun NPC from that book (p.62):
Agrippa Khejas, Scholar of Bletherad
6th level scholar, and 1st level longbowman
HTH: Expert
Attacks per melee: 5 attacks per melee (7 with a bow)
Again, a 6th level character with HTH Expert should only have 3 attacks per melee, but she has 5, two more than she should.
And apparently, she has two extra attacks on top of that when she uses the bow.
A first level Longbow Man has a ROF of 2.
So going by that one NPC, it looks like in PFRPG not only do the TAFL exist, but ROF stacks on top of attacks per melee.
Naturally, I wouldn't go off of that one NPC, but it goes to show that it's nowhere nearly as simple as you seem to think.
If you want a clearer answer, start going through all your PFRPG books and calculating up the NPC attacks per melee.
Keep your eyes out for archers; I'd be interested to hear what any others are like, and if they work the same way.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Also, there's the reference to "bonus shots from the WP." This indicates that the ROF of an archer is supposed to grant more attacks with the bow than they would normally have in melee combat, which certainly is not the case if you go strictly off of the listed ROF for the weapon.
It's a case where the letter of the law seems to go against the spirit of the law, and we ruled in favor of the spirit.
See above.
Though, if you wanted to go strictly by the "bonus shots from WP" ONLY, then you'd have to figure ROF actually is added on top of APM (not instead of).
ONLY if you assume that Palladium is using the term "bonus" in the most literal sense, not in the sense that simply having more attacks with a bow than a melee weapon would be a "bonus."
Being very familiar with the writing style of Palladium writers, I saw no reason to make that assumption.
With the LoB NPC above, though, I suppose that might actually BE the correct interpretation.
In the future, before trying to tell me where my logic falls apart, you might try gaining a bit more information as to what my logic IS, and where it comes from.
Since you generally seem to try to come off as polite and inoffensive.
My feathers get ruffled at times when people just assume that I don't know what I'm talking about.