Elder Gods in Rifts

[Raze_7]

So, according to all of the Rifts books, most of the major Old Ones are imprisoned in a super-magical slumber. However, seeing as, in the Lovecraft books, there were many, many Old Ones, some with different beliefs than others (one was even considered an aberation in RCB1, which felt compassion for other races), is it possible that some are not imprisoned (excluding Vampire Intelligences, because they are puny and weak)? For example, one of the Elder Gods, Ulthar, was actually an extra-multiversalbeing sent to moniter the other Old Ones. Since I haven't read much of Lovecraft, I don't really know what Ulthar's "alignment" would be (I'm assuming Unprincipled or Anarchist), but, this definitely ties in the possibility of another race of Old Ones inhabiting another universe/multiverse.

A question I have is this: How would one stat a creature like this? (I'm not even asking about a player character, which could possibly be difficult to get past a GM, unless you were fighting more Old Ones.)

I know that the Old Ones were statted in one of the earlier printings of one of the books, and that these were completely deleted in the second edition, but that doesn't help me.

(Just food for thought: My GM actually allowed an Old-One-like character, on the condition that he couldn't use the upper levels of his powers because the use of such would rip the planet apart, and because the character is mostly pacifistic.)

[Library Ogre]

I'd go with an Alien Intelligence as the base.

[kaid]

Well you would probably have to start off with something like the lord of the deep but then make it stronger. The lord of the deep would probably be equal to a lesser old one. The greater ones were crafting new forms of magic at whim and spewing out entire species of animals/plants/servitor species at incredible rates. The lord of the deep shows some of this such as the ability to manipulate and change life but he does not seem to be as magically inclined as the greater old ones of palladium.

[Alrik Vas]

I firmly believe that this I'd one of those "whatever works best for your campaign" moments. something like an old one is power on a different level of even dragons and gods and the ways you could represent that power has an incredible range.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So, according to all of the Rifts books, most of the major Old Ones are imprisoned in a super-magical slumber. However, seeing as, in the Lovecraft books, there were many, many Old Ones, some with different beliefs than others (one was even considered an aberation in RCB1, which felt compassion for other races), is it possible that some are not imprisoned (excluding Vampire Intelligences, because they are puny and weak)? For example, one of the Elder Gods, Ulthar, was actually an extra-multiversalbeing sent to moniter the other Old Ones. Since I haven't read much of Lovecraft, I don't really know what Ulthar's "alignment" would be (I'm assuming Unprincipled or Anarchist), but, this definitely ties in the possibility of another race of Old Ones inhabiting another universe/multiverse.

A question I have is this: How would one stat a creature like this? (I'm not even asking about a player character, which could possibly be difficult to get past a GM, unless you were fighting more Old Ones.)

I know that the Old Ones were statted in one of the earlier printings of one of the books, and that these were completely deleted in the second edition, but that doesn't help me.

(Just food for thought: My GM actually allowed an Old-One-like character, on the condition that he couldn't use the upper levels of his powers because the use of such would rip the planet apart, and because the character is mostly pacifistic.)

It's been stated that less powerful/less dangerous old ones were not imprisoned, but there's no real guidelines on such. The best thing to use as a guideline would be beings like Apsu (Pantheons of the megaverse) and Nxla (psyscape) as they are both example of these lesser lovecraftian horrors who, while not imprisoned in magical slumber, nevertheless are powerful enough to wreak havoc on planet after planet.

[Satan Lord of Hell]

I see he has been mentioned: If you have RIFTS: Pantheons of the Megaverse, just look at Apsu. In my mind he is a perfect template for a Riftsian Elder God. He is even in mystic slumber due to the actions of lesser gods.

I ran a campaign (which my players affectionately called "The Big, Dumb, Evil Campaign") which culminated fights with Tiamat and Apsu - these were both ridiculous and barely worked at all; Apsu has a quarter of a million MDC, knows nearly all spells, and has one cute combat trick.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I see he has been mentioned: If you have RIFTS: Pantheons of the Megaverse, just look at Apsu. In my mind he is a perfect template for a Riftsian Elder God. He is even in mystic slumber due to the actions of lesser gods.

I ran a campaign (which my players affectionately called "The Big, Dumb, Evil Campaign") which culminated fights with Tiamat and Apsu - these were both ridiculous and barely worked at all; Apsu has a quarter of a million MDC, knows nearly all spells, and has one cute combat trick.

well okay, yes, Apsu was put into a magical slumber, but he's not sealed away in a big prison guarded by the biggest gods in the megaverse. he was tricked and put to sleep by a handful of lesser gods who got him at a vunerable moment and then just sort of tucked away somewhere they hoped no one would find him, which is why I cited him as a good lovecraftian anologe for what he wanted.

[Raze_7]

I see he has been mentioned: If you have RIFTS: Pantheons of the Megaverse, just look at Apsu. In my mind he is a perfect template for a Riftsian Elder God. He is even in mystic slumber due to the actions of lesser gods.

I ran a campaign (which my players affectionately called "The Big, Dumb, Evil Campaign") which culminated fights with Tiamat and Apsu - these were both ridiculous and barely worked at all; Apsu has a quarter of a million MDC, knows nearly all spells, and has one cute combat trick.

Thanks! I was trying to remember his name. Apsu was the one who was a... less evil old one, right? The one that's mentioned in Conversion Book 1?

[Svartalf]

No, Apsu is mentions in CB2/Pantheons... I'm not sure which you are talking about

[Tor]

Apsu MIGHT be tucked away with Cronus and the Old Ones, maybe they forgot to mention it?

Makes you wonder where he might be though.

Maybe he's the Dark?

[eliakon]

Apsu MIGHT be tucked away with Cronus and the Old Ones, maybe they forgot to mention it?

Makes you wonder where he might be though.

Maybe he's the Dark?

I would suspect that the Dark is Netosa mor Erva myself.
I also suspect that he is just tucked away in a rather well shielded pocket dimension (eternal slumber in null-space seems to be a common way of dealing with monsters.....)

[H.P. Hovercraft]

Yeah, given Lovecraft's writing and PB's love for AI's, there's definitely the possibility for other (lesser) Old Ones not locked away in Eternal Slumber.

As for stating them out............a few good suggestions have already been made above for templates (Nyxla, The Lord of the Deep, etc), but keep in mind....
....even the biggest deities couldn't end the Old Ones, only put them to sleep (Deific Choke-Hold or some such), so is stating one out really necessary? Or are your PC's really that physically capable?

Because it seems that something like (I dunno) an Elder God giving the group a possible means to imprison or exile a Lesser Old One would be a more viable means for a PC party and campaign idea.

Just my .02

[Satan Lord of Hell]

Thanks! I was trying to remember his name. Apsu was the one who was a... less evil old one, right? The one that's mentioned in Conversion Book 1?

You are probably thinking of "Agu" the old one associated with life and rebirth. Off-hand, I recall that this name appears in the run-down of Old Ones in the Dark Conversions book.

---Regarding the power level of the old ones, when they are mentioned it is only clear that they are, as far as the most powerful and oldest beings in the megaverse are concerned, truly immortal (as-in, unable to be killed by any means) and dwarf the power of even the mightiest alien intelligences. It is implied that Old Ones can "enslave" entire planets <- whatever the crap that is supposed to mean in comparison to the empire of slaves amassed by the Splugorth.

[Satan Lord of Hell]

Sorry to double post but I made the mistake of double checking the list of Old Ones before bed and I had completely forgotten about my boy Thoth.

(Edit: Thoth is found in Rifts - World Book 4: Africa)

Thoth is actually a "lobotomized" Old-One, Xy. To this effect he gets a whopping 40k MDC which is kind of middle-of-the-road for greater gods in Pantheons. So here we have a much diminished Old One, lacking 90% of his memory.

To me his story reinforces my belief that Apsu (at least stat and power wise) is a fairly good approximation for the old ones.

I suppose it is worth noting that nowhere in Thoth's list of powers is old one style true immortality specifically mentioned, so theoretically by the book he can be destroyed.

Cheers.

(PS - I also just remembered that the OP should look at the deific spells in Palladium: Dragons & Gods, the old ones would certainly use spells and powers even more devastating than these!)

[Tor]

I have this fear that if you depleted Thoth's MDC instead of killing him it might just unlock the sleeping thing in side him... =/

[eliakon]

I have this fear that if you depleted Thoth's MDC instead of killing him it might just unlock the sleeping thing in side him... =/

I have always wondered if that was really Xy, or just an essence fragement of Xy......
With the rest of it in some circle, asleep somewhere.....
Either way, I do not want to kill Thoth and find out.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Apsu MIGHT be tucked away with Cronus and the Old Ones, maybe they forgot to mention it?

Makes you wonder where he might be though.

Maybe he's the Dark?

Uhh, he could only be tucked away with Chronus OR the old ones, not both. Chrouns is imprisoned in Tartarus, which is a Transdimensional realm that is seperate from hades where they and a number of godly enemies imprisoned, which is different from wherever they stuck the old ones, although the purpose appears to be the same. Considering they are kind of close neighbors (ancient greece and sumer did trade before the bronze age collapse) it's entirely possible he was stuck up in tartarus.

I always wondered if Apsu or Nesotsa are The Dark of nightbane--one or the other, I think.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have this fear that if you depleted Thoth's MDC instead of killing him it might just unlock the sleeping thing in side him... =/

Dosn't matter too much, his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was and in fact won't even change his apperance, and he'll not remember 90% of what Xy knew anyway.

Though honestly, the most likely result of reducing him to zero MDC is he kind of falls into a coma until two of the egyptian gods wish him back. I don't think waking up Xy will be THAT simple.

[Raze_7]

I have this fear that if you depleted Thoth's MDC instead of killing him it might just unlock the sleeping thing in side him... =/

Dosn't matter too much, his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was and in fact won't even change his apperance, and he'll not remember 90% of what Xy knew anyway.

Though honestly, the most likely result of reducing him to zero MDC is he kind of falls into a coma until two of the egyptian gods wish him back. I don't think waking up Xy will be THAT simple.

I don't think so, either. Although, just like apps, "There's a cult for that!"

[Raze_7]

Yeah, given Lovecraft's writing and PB's love for AI's, there's definitely the possibility for other (lesser) Old Ones not locked away in Eternal Slumber.

As for stating them out............a few good suggestions have already been made above for templates (Nyxla, The Lord of the Deep, etc), but keep in mind....
....even the biggest deities couldn't end the Old Ones, only put them to sleep (Deific Choke-Hold or some such), so is stating one out really necessary? Or are your PC's really that physically capable?

Because it seems that something like (I dunno) an Elder God giving the group a possible means to imprison or exile a Lesser Old One would be a more viable means for a PC party and campaign idea.

Just my .02

Again, I did mention this. Also, no GM who didn't have an evil plan for a boss would allow one anyway. The only reason I add that clause is because our group has a character who could theoretically beat an Old-One, a Seraph, a robo-bear, a Rogue Scholar, and some sort of Alien Intelligence, and our GM (and the player who played the Old One thing) still didn't think that we had a chance.

[Tor]

he could only be tucked away with Chronus OR the old ones, not both. Chrouns is imprisoned in Tartarus, which is a Transdimensional realm that is seperate from hades where they and a number of godly enemies imprisoned, which is different from wherever they stuck the old ones

I might have been thinking of Ahriman, I think I recall some note about him being with the Old Ones then.

Although... AIs can coexist simultaneously in multiple dimensions, so what if part of putting the Old Ones to sleep was splitting their essences and jailing the fragments in different prisons in different dimensions?

his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was

That might just be that he awakens as a Miscreant version of Xy, or maybe just a different flavor of Diabolic. Not being the 'evil person he once was' does not mean he won't turn evil Xy did not have the memories or skills Thoth gained (probably pre-dated techno-wizardry) so a reawakened Xy might be a more powerful and more evil one than the one who was put to sleep.

[Lenwen]

his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was

That might just be that he awakens as a Miscreant version of Xy, or maybe just a different flavor of Diabolic. Not being the 'evil person he once was' does not mean he won't turn evil Xy did not have the memories or skills Thoth gained (probably pre-dated techno-wizardry) so a reawakened Xy might be a more powerful and more evil one than the one who was put to sleep.

The real question is ..

Will he be just as powerful as he used to be "if" / "when " he awakens ?

[Slight001]

his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was

That might just be that he awakens as a Miscreant version of Xy, or maybe just a different flavor of Diabolic. Not being the 'evil person he once was' does not mean he won't turn evil Xy did not have the memories or skills Thoth gained (probably pre-dated techno-wizardry) so a reawakened Xy might be a more powerful and more evil one than the one who was put to sleep.

The real question is ..

Will he be just as powerful as he used to be "if" / "when " he awakens ?

That depends upon how much of his so called power was because of his evil nature.

[Nekira Sudacne]

he could only be tucked away with Chronus OR the old ones, not both. Chrouns is imprisoned in Tartarus, which is a Transdimensional realm that is seperate from hades where they and a number of godly enemies imprisoned, which is different from wherever they stuck the old ones

I might have been thinking of Ahriman, I think I recall some note about him being with the Old Ones then.

You misremember, it said that his dimensional prison is SIMILAR to the ones binding the Old One, Apsu, and the greek titans, and he is plotting to free ALL of them provided he can find some way to control them after doing so (he is unlikely to succeed in that, but he's crazy enough to give it a try)

Although... AIs can coexist simultaneously in multiple dimensions, so what if part of putting the Old Ones to sleep was splitting their essences and jailing the fragments in different prisons in different dimensions?

No, It is a single great prison, Brahman is the Deity who maintains it, having to leave every six weeks to do so at the cost of considerable body investments and PPE loss. He is actually on par with Zurvan, Thoth, ect, but because he is constantly spending most of his power keeping the old ones prison intact he is never at "full" strength, more or less.

Really, if you just imprison him, the old ones would eventually break out on their own unless someone else on that level took over the duties of maintaining it--it made it clear the old ones are constantly wearing at it, even in sleep.

his writeup says explicitly that even if he ever awakens to his true past, he will never be the evil person he once was

That might just be that he awakens as a Miscreant version of Xy, or maybe just a different flavor of Diabolic. Not being the 'evil person he once was' does not mean he won't turn evil Xy did not have the memories or skills Thoth gained (probably pre-dated techno-wizardry) so a reawakened Xy might be a more powerful and more evil one than the one who was put to sleep.

The follow up paragaph basically says "Of course the GM can go in any direction they think will make the most interesting story, but even a worst case, he truely has lost most of Xy's raw power and can never regain it"

Of course, one can argue that knowlege gained sinse then, like techno-wizardy, might make up for that, but that's again--up to the GM's story.

[Tor]

Okay I got Pantheons and put together what connection I was trying to remember:

*pg 90 mentions Prometheus knowing about Brahma's "secret struggle" in the 'Nether Worlds' which includes maintaining the Titan-barrier within Tartarus (which would include Cronus, as one of the Titans)
*pg 122 mentions that the "Unnameable Beings" (including the Old Ones of the Palladium World, presumably referring to the Great Old Ones, but might instead refer to one of the LOOs like that Slith guy) are what Brahma and his "select few" are containing. Although 'un-name-able' is an odd term to use for beings whose names are regularly incorporated as power words in PRPG spellcasting...

So the confusion resulted from Brahma being responsible for (1) keeping Cronus jailed (2) keeping the GOOs asleep; but you're right, this doesn't mean they're put together.

Since Cronus and Ahriman are within specific singular dimensions while the Un-Nameable-Ones (kind of want to abbreviate this the UNOs, which may include the GOOs, but if not, includes at least the LOOs) are "in several places between dimensions". Sounds almost like the Mirror-wall...

The fourth dimension also sounds like it's effectively 'between dimensions ' too. Plus since Zurvan actually may be a former old one (not sure if one of the GOO though) perhaps Brahma befriended him as a reformed villain much like how Ra and Isis befriended Thoth?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay I got Pantheons and put together what connection I was trying to remember:

*pg 90 mentions Prometheus knowing about Brahma's "secret struggle" in the 'Nether Worlds' which includes maintaining the Titan-barrier within Tartarus (which would include Cronus, as one of the Titans)
*pg 122 mentions that the "Unnameable Beings" (including the Old Ones of the Palladium World, presumably referring to the Great Old Ones, but might instead refer to one of the LOOs like that Slith guy) are what Brahma and his "select few" are containing. Although 'un-name-able' is an odd term to use for beings whose names are regularly incorporated as power words in PRPG spellcasting...

So the confusion resulted from Brahma being responsible for (1) keeping Cronus jailed (2) keeping the GOOs asleep; but you're right, this doesn't mean they're put together.

Since Cronus and Ahriman are within specific singular dimensions while the Un-Nameable-Ones (kind of want to abbreviate this the UNOs, which may include the GOOs, but if not, includes at least the LOOs) are "in several places between dimensions". Sounds almost like the Mirror-wall...

Good job catching the Cronus thing. I do want to point out that Slyth can't be amoung those, because Slyth isn't in a dimensional prison. he's just chillin' in a cave on the Palladium Fantasy world, where any random adventurer can find him and go insane (there are rules for players doing this).

The fourth dimension also sounds like it's effectively 'between dimensions ' too.

No, it just said that Zurvan had the power to close a rift and effectively destroy an AI between dimensions. That could be related to his god of time powers but unrelated to the fourth dimension.

Plus since Zurvan actually may be a former old one (not sure if one of the GOO though) perhaps Brahma befriended him as a reformed villain much like how Ra and Isis befriended Thoth?

No real way to tell, but it does say that Ra and Isis have no idea who Thoth used to be.

[Tor]

Yeah, Brahma seems brighter than them so he may or may not. If Zurvan were formerly someone nice like Agu it wouldn't be as big a deal either.

I figure with Slith... might be others like him, right? I tend to assume the number of LOOs exceeds the number of GOOs.