Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by SittingBull »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
SittingBull wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:GBs would have the upper hand until they enter a hive, slow movers against fast movers in tight areas , fast movers win.
The boom guns could work but they have to be delivering contast shots, hit or miss over prolong time, but once it moves underground that sonic boom could work against the glitterboys.



If the sonic booms underground were more concentrated then that would also affect the bugs worse.

Or collapse tunnels, and trap themselves.



Very true.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

With the Duluth Hive, the xiticix attack and destroy anything that enters 10 miles of the hive, according to the Rifts Adventure Book.
It's probably similar for other hives.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

Johnnycat93 wrote:Again, it's to uncertain to say. Xits reliance on swarm tactics and their territorial nature means that they are unlikely to let such a large and dangerous force anywhere past the outskirts of the hivelands. Plus if they make themselves seem like enough of a threat outside before reaching to deep into the hivelands than they can draw out the main bug force. Manipulating known bug tactics means that the GBs don't have to fight on the absolute worse terrain possible. Meanwhile it seems a little to convinient to give the bugs a pre-built tunnel leading directly under the legions feet that could transport a sizable strike force. On the other hand, the same could be said of giving the bugs no tunnels within a two mile area.

One of the things to consider is that moving that many pieces of large equipment across the ground is going to cause tunnels close to the surface to collapse. The GB legion is not going to willingly fight on unstable ground of that nature. Of course they have no way of knowing until one or more of them collapse a tunnel under them and fall in.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:Again, it's to uncertain to say. Xits reliance on swarm tactics and their territorial nature means that they are unlikely to let such a large and dangerous force anywhere past the outskirts of the hivelands. Plus if they make themselves seem like enough of a threat outside before reaching to deep into the hivelands than they can draw out the main bug force. Manipulating known bug tactics means that the GBs don't have to fight on the absolute worse terrain possible. Meanwhile it seems a little to convinient to give the bugs a pre-built tunnel leading directly under the legions feet that could transport a sizable strike force. On the other hand, the same could be said of giving the bugs no tunnels within a two mile area.

One of the things to consider is that moving that many pieces of large equipment across the ground is going to cause tunnels close to the surface to collapse. The GB legion is not going to willingly fight on unstable ground of that nature. Of course they have no way of knowing until one or more of them collapse a tunnel under them and fall in.

Preconstructed tunnels are likely to be reinforced with MDC resin so it would only be the freshest tunnels at risk for caving in.

True for the most part. However, we do not know how much weight the resin will hold before giving way. Yes, MDC material is tough but it still has limits.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:Again, it's to uncertain to say. Xits reliance on swarm tactics and their territorial nature means that they are unlikely to let such a large and dangerous force anywhere past the outskirts of the hivelands. Plus if they make themselves seem like enough of a threat outside before reaching to deep into the hivelands than they can draw out the main bug force. Manipulating known bug tactics means that the GBs don't have to fight on the absolute worse terrain possible. Meanwhile it seems a little to convinient to give the bugs a pre-built tunnel leading directly under the legions feet that could transport a sizable strike force. On the other hand, the same could be said of giving the bugs no tunnels within a two mile area.

One of the things to consider is that moving that many pieces of large equipment across the ground is going to cause tunnels close to the surface to collapse. The GB legion is not going to willingly fight on unstable ground of that nature. Of course they have no way of knowing until one or more of them collapse a tunnel under them and fall in.

Preconstructed tunnels are likely to be reinforced with MDC resin so it would only be the freshest tunnels at risk for caving in.

True for the most part. However, we do not know how much weight the resin will hold before giving way. Yes, MDC material is tough but it still has limits.

Unfortunately the limits usually seem to be pretty arbitrary

I agree. I usually try to determine these limits and make sure they are the same every time. For example, the resin should hold in the neighborhood of 30-40 tons, more with bracing (which wouldn't be in small tunnels).
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:
Johnnycat93 wrote:Again, it's to uncertain to say. Xits reliance on swarm tactics and their territorial nature means that they are unlikely to let such a large and dangerous force anywhere past the outskirts of the hivelands. Plus if they make themselves seem like enough of a threat outside before reaching to deep into the hivelands than they can draw out the main bug force. Manipulating known bug tactics means that the GBs don't have to fight on the absolute worse terrain possible. Meanwhile it seems a little to convinient to give the bugs a pre-built tunnel leading directly under the legions feet that could transport a sizable strike force. On the other hand, the same could be said of giving the bugs no tunnels within a two mile area.

One of the things to consider is that moving that many pieces of large equipment across the ground is going to cause tunnels close to the surface to collapse. The GB legion is not going to willingly fight on unstable ground of that nature. Of course they have no way of knowing until one or more of them collapse a tunnel under them and fall in.

Preconstructed tunnels are likely to be reinforced with MDC resin so it would only be the freshest tunnels at risk for caving in.


I tend to agree.
Of course, if you're firing a Boom Gun in the tunnels, cave-ins from the sound are probably the least of your worries.
Just blasting huge holes in the walls (floor, ceiling) every time you miss or overkill would be more likely to trigger a cave-in.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Talavar »

Killer Cyborg wrote:The full quote is this:
These sub-groups within the colony are independent of the Elder Queen and each of these non-aligned, new Queen "courts" are allowed to go free with their Queen to try to form a new hive of their own. Typically, after leaving their birth hive, each prospective young Queen and her entourage will battle the other young Queens and their courts until there is only one winner- survival of the fittest. The survivors of each group that loses their young Queen (it is their job to protect her) are completely destroyed by their rivals. There is no assimilation of any survivors, except for the occasional Nanny. Nannies will sometimes be captured and assimilated because of their important role in the growth of the new hive colony. This same process occurs when a new Hive Network (like the one on Rifts Earth) approaches or exceeds the 200 million mark In this case, the young queens may batle but because there currently is ample room for expansion, as many as a third will avoid such conflict and simply go away to start a new colony in an unchallenged space. However, such new hives are likely to be 300-500 miles or farther away form the hive that spawned them. NOTE: This has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen. While all six see each other as independent and potential rivals, there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight.

What the paragraph is describing is a process where prospective young queens within a colony each establish their own court, then try to form new hives of their own.
"This same process occurs" in a new Hive Network (like Rifts) when it reaches the 200 million mark.
The Note that "this" has yet to happen is referring to the competition between potential queens and/or Queens; hence the further comment that "there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight."
It's talking about fighting between Queens.


You're glossing over half the note - that all five colonies were created as a direct choice by an elder queen. There's no choice when the hives have reached 200/500 million; there was a choice in this instance because the hive branched out at a lower population than necessary.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Talavar wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:The full quote is this:
These sub-groups within the colony are independent of the Elder Queen and each of these non-aligned, new Queen "courts" are allowed to go free with their Queen to try to form a new hive of their own. Typically, after leaving their birth hive, each prospective young Queen and her entourage will battle the other young Queens and their courts until there is only one winner- survival of the fittest. The survivors of each group that loses their young Queen (it is their job to protect her) are completely destroyed by their rivals. There is no assimilation of any survivors, except for the occasional Nanny. Nannies will sometimes be captured and assimilated because of their important role in the growth of the new hive colony. This same process occurs when a new Hive Network (like the one on Rifts Earth) approaches or exceeds the 200 million mark In this case, the young queens may batle but because there currently is ample room for expansion, as many as a third will avoid such conflict and simply go away to start a new colony in an unchallenged space. However, such new hives are likely to be 300-500 miles or farther away form the hive that spawned them. NOTE: This has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen. While all six see each other as independent and potential rivals, there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight.

What the paragraph is describing is a process where prospective young queens within a colony each establish their own court, then try to form new hives of their own.
"This same process occurs" in a new Hive Network (like Rifts) when it reaches the 200 million mark.
The Note that "this" has yet to happen is referring to the competition between potential queens and/or Queens; hence the further comment that "there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight."
It's talking about fighting between Queens.


You're glossing over half the note - that all five colonies were created as a direct choice by an elder queen. There's no choice when the hives have reached 200/500 million; there was a choice in this instance because the hive branched out at a lower population than necessary.


I'm not glossing over it; it's unimportant.
All that tells us is that whenever the original splitting was, it wasn't because of the 300 million mark being reached.
Which says absolutely nothing about the fact that a new splitting is about to occur due to the population threshold being met.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:I agree. I usually try to determine these limits and make sure they are the same every time. For example, the resin should hold in the neighborhood of 30-40 tons, more with bracing (which wouldn't be in small tunnels).

Well we could try and jury-rig some math together:
A glitterboys stop damage is 1D6 MD. Obviously this is for a purposeful attack and not just simple walking. However, with the large amount of glitterboys marching in unison in some kind of military formation, I'd say 5-10 of them could recreate the same effect from just casual movement every say, 15 seconds. Given their size this would mean that they would be effecting an area of 30-50 ft. Now, if the tunnels are deeper than say, 35-50 ft than the dirt in between will absorb most of the damage and leave the tunnels shaken but structurally sound. Any shallower than that and the resin is likely to take anywhere from 0-3 MD every 15 seconds since there is still a good amount of material inbetween and it is likely to absorb 1/2 to 1/4 the initial damage.

Of course extrapolating it this far is likely not a real world accurate portrayl of the scene and the physics and could possibly be completely inacurate all together.

I would probably say 20 feet or shallower would be affected. I would go with 1 damage every 15 second at 20 feet. At 15 feet, 1d4 divided in half per round. At 10 feet 1d6 divided in half. At anything less than 10 feet, I would go with 1d4 twice per 15 seconds. Also with a tunnel less than 10 feet below the surface, I would do 1d4 to the tunnel from the lasers in the stabilizing pylons each time a boom gun is shot unless they remain in the same position.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Gryphon wrote:Are we entirely certain the five split off hives are on the same scale as the original hive? It could be that in her conscious decision to split off (why ever she did that, I haven't actually read the material on this, and I think I have the book somewhere in a foot locker) the other five hives might have been under built by quite a bit to get them in place rapidly. So their capacity might not come even close to the noted 200/500 million mark really.


It seems that they were split off early in order to start expanding swiftly, but that doesn't affect their maximum population limit per hive.

Also note, underground and skyscrapers or not, any number of bugs close to even half the low end is utter nonsense. Unless these hives have a footprint several orders of magnitude greater than New York City at its height, then we are talking about levels of crowding that are physically, not mentally, unsustainable. Beijing at the moment is around 21 million in an area of less than 6,500 square miles. These hives are far, far more compact, lack any sort of true skyscrapers (100 floor monsters), penetrate no deeper than a major city like New York, and yet have a population maximum of around ten times the most populous city on Earth?! Did not do the research here!


Well, no, I'm betting that they didn't do the research there. Moreover, I'm betting that they didn't put a heck of a lot of thought into the numbers that they printed, nor the implications.
But that's what we have.

As it is, the hive colonies are of undisclosed physical size. We don't know how wide they are, and we don't know how deep they are.
And unlike with human cities, the bugs don't have qualms about close quarters, they don't have utilities, they don't have roads and subways, restaurants, etc. etc.
The vast majority of their colonies are probably (I don't have time to look right now) effectively military barracks, packing high numbers into small spaces.

Even considering that humans sprawl a lot, and have issues with space efficiency, this is over the top, and this isn't even figuring in that bugs are somewhat larger than humans! 50-60 million for a hive to split, maybe, not likely, but maybe. 200 million or more? Garbage.


Maybe they use the same technique that allows a Glitterboy to store 1,000 rounds of ammo.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Dr Megaverse »

Why are we assuming the GBs will move into Hiveland territory? If the idea is to fight bugs and not find bug holes/towers why even go into the hive lands with the whole force? Why not use a small element to draw them out? Enough bugs dying in area ought to make a big enough stink (literally, death pheromones) to keep drawing more. Also, why are we assuming they can't use aerial fly overs looking for dense materials the bugs can't dig through for a basing area? I believe I saw that the CS has this ability, and FQ has some sort of Air Force no?
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mercury »

Perhaps slightly cheating, but could you not launch a massive push to capture a Queen (or perhaps the GM would allow to use any single xit?), and use biological warfare to design a virus to eradicate the species entirely by either making them incapable of reproducing (which would allow you to at least halt their growth), or flat out killing them with a targeted virus (which the GM could make backfire in other unintended ways, so perhaps a little more risky)?

Personally, I think it silly to engage in a slug fest when humans are outnumbered so badly. But to answer the original question, I bet the legion could hold out in most scenarios since if the xits are clustered up enough, the GB shots would be penetrating multiple enemies, and even taking out a wing enough to make the xit fall to the ground would, IMHO, would take them out of the main fight. God bless AOE dps! ;)

Anyways, just a thought :)
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Dr Megaverse »

Gryphon wrote:As for the fly over option, the original poster stipulated a legion of 2560 Glitterboys of various sorts and 1,000 support troopers, but never made any mention of additional resources, so that is what "we" collectively are technically limited to.


In that 1000 support troops you can't add in one single airplane?
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

Dr Megaverse wrote:
Gryphon wrote:As for the fly over option, the original poster stipulated a legion of 2560 Glitterboys of various sorts and 1,000 support troopers, but never made any mention of additional resources, so that is what "we" collectively are technically limited to.


In that 1000 support troops you can't add in one single airplane?

Free Quebec is pretty specific that that country has very little in the way of air force, preferring to rely on sky cycles, SAMAS and light hovercraft (page 53).

If you want to get technical, of that 1000 support troops (as I stated earlier in the thread) 480 are GB Side Kicks, 106 3-man reload teams, 100-300 other PA's/Borgs/Special forces troops, and the rest are communications, supply, medics and mechanics.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Icefalcon »

I guess if you really wanted to get technical, to even get all of those GB's out to the Hive Lands, you would need 183 of the Sky Hawk GB transport ships (just for the GB's alone). I guess the rest could be in Mark V APC's, reload vehicles, medical barge, Cougar hover jeep and other regular type troop transport.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by SittingBull »

I like the biological warfare idea against the bugs.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Shark_Force »

SittingBull wrote:I like the biological warfare idea against the bugs.


someone is already trying that, iirc. it isn't working terribly well.

or maybe that was just an adventure idea... either way, i seem to recall that it either didn't have much effect, or that it wasn't going to have much effect...
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Dr Megaverse »

Inflexibility is one of my least favorite aspects of "the rules". *sigh*
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by The Beast »

Shark_Force wrote:
SittingBull wrote:I like the biological warfare idea against the bugs.


someone is already trying that, iirc. it isn't working terribly well.

or maybe that was just an adventure idea... either way, i seem to recall that it either didn't have much effect, or that it wasn't going to have much effect...


It was an adventure idea that the PCs were supposed to stop because they'd go crazy and attack a nearby town IIRC.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by kaid »

Mercury wrote:Perhaps slightly cheating, but could you not launch a massive push to capture a Queen (or perhaps the GM would allow to use any single xit?), and use biological warfare to design a virus to eradicate the species entirely by either making them incapable of reproducing (which would allow you to at least halt their growth), or flat out killing them with a targeted virus (which the GM could make backfire in other unintended ways, so perhaps a little more risky)?

Personally, I think it silly to engage in a slug fest when humans are outnumbered so badly. But to answer the original question, I bet the legion could hold out in most scenarios since if the xits are clustered up enough, the GB shots would be penetrating multiple enemies, and even taking out a wing enough to make the xit fall to the ground would, IMHO, would take them out of the main fight. God bless AOE dps! ;)

Anyways, just a thought :)



Really the way to fight xiticix at least to cut their numbers down to size is aerial bombardment. LRM's and high altitude bombers. If you are flying at 40k feet flying at 300-400 mph the xiticix are not even going to see you and even if they see you have no hope of engaging you. Bomb the hives over and over and over and over again. You won't get them all and won't kill the queen but doing this you could kill millions upon millions of them risk free especially somebody like FQ who is not even that close to the hivelands. On the off chance the hives were able to some how backtrack where your planes were coming from which is doubtful you would have a huge amount of warning with any kind of scout flights and could use LRM/MRM/Air power to whittle away at the raiding party while a GB legion or two comes up to play short stop.

Eventually you would have to go into the hive remnants to clean up the queens but it is much easier to do this when you have wiped the majority of their surface forces off the map. The only real limitation to this fight is ammunition supply. Can you keep the bombs coming fast enough but since you are just bombarding a huge area you don't need any kind of seeker heads just old style B52 carpet bombing.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by T-Willard »

If there are the following:

1000 is 480 Side Kicks, 106 reload teams, 100-300 other power armors/combat borgs/special troops (I will go with 300 for argument's sake). This leaves 114 troops for mechanics, medics, communications and logistics. Now lets make those 300 random PA's/Cyborgs: 50 Power Troopers, 25 Pale Death SAMAS, 25 V-SAM, 150 SAMAS, 20 Imprimer Borgs, 20 Slasher Borgs, 15 Standard Heavy Combat Borgs (RUE version).

As for the Glitter Boys themselves, if you have half of them that require ammo fire while the others are held in reserve until the first half needs to reload and also have the ones using energy based weapons (unlimited ammo) keep up constant covering fire you can make the ammo stretch out a bit longer. With 50% of the Glitter Boys being the original type (with Rimouski Weapon Package and vibro-sword) they can all fire 128,000 rounds before reloading. The Taurus GB can fire 1536 mortars (assuming they are all using the mortars cannons instead of heavy laser cannons). The 384 Glitter Girls can reload their own weapons (two actions) and still fire energy blasts, putting out 38,400 explosive shells before reloading.


First of all, 1,000 support personnel is waaay too low. On the average, according to military doctrine I remember (from strategy and tactics courses) there should be at least 4 support personnel per person. This accounts for: Ammunition handlers, medics, paperwork, military intelligence, mechanics, cooks, supply, and everything else.

With that in mind, some changes need to be made.

Let's say this is a REAL military operation by Free Quebec, with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States.

First of all, you'll want to send up an advance party to scout the area and find a suitable location for the following:

Firebases, support bases, logistics bases.

Once a location is discovered, construction crews and security teams should be sent to set the bases up. The security teams will need to destroy any Xiticix scouts to prevent the full scope of what is being built to be discovered. This is vitally important. Unless there is an overwhelming reason that it should be built in Xiticix "territory" then for best effort it should be built 2-10 miles outside of the "territory". Construction, with Rifts Earth techniques, should take hours or days at the most. Both before construction begins and once construction is complete, high velocity aircraft should be used to "map" the surrounding territory in at least 30 miles in all directions, including high resolution photographs, laser ground contour imaging, and multiple "wavelength" imaging should be made. Leading up to the site selection, mapping should be done over a period of 30 days, allowing analysts to examine the images for any changes of any type during the time.

The CS should be providing anti-air vehicles. These will out out a LOT of flak. Our strike force (Serpent Seven Actual) will place 4 different AA sections. Two behind our pirmary strike force, one to the left, one to the right. These should consist of enough vehicles to put out enough flak, by themselves, to handle large "swarms". Those will be firebases Alpha, Bravo, Sigma, Epsilon.

At these firebases should also be: Artillery vehicles, ammunition reloads, communication hubs, and air defense systems, including "air defense artillery" stations. There will be three types of air defense systems: Long range (Probably SAM based) as well as medium range (Probably rocket-assisted air defense clusters), as well as "point defense" systems, more than likely the classic pintle mount with 2 sets of 4 railguns. You'd want a LOT of lead in the air as fast as possible for the point defense systems.

We'll dig in and station our artillery here. Not air defense artillery, but honest to god eight inch artillery systems (preferably self-propelled) as well as the CS/FQ version of the MRLS wagon. Since we have 4 firebases, we'll divide up the 100 piece brigade into 4 sections. The two side ones will have 20 arty pieces and 20 arty wagons each. The two in the rear will have 30 of each per wagon. The arty pieces and MRLS systems should have literally thousands of artillery rounds and MRLS reloads available. Additionally we'll add 4.2" ERLIX mortar systems (laser guided munitions capable of in-flight trajectory adjustments) loaded up with variable fuzing. The two most common types will be elevation set (for airbursts) as well as proximity (to use on the "clouds" or any marching formation). The mortars should be the new systems, like the modern mobile systems in use by the US Army and USMC. These have internal and external magazines, capable of loading systems, and be able to be adjusted via computers with a high rate of fire.

(During Desert Shield, before the Ground War, Logbase Echo shipped out approximately 25,000 or more 8" artillery rounds PER DAY, which were all used by the next day)

Communications should be multiple systems: Hardline fiber-optic buried cable, laser whisker systems, frequency agile radio systems, micro-wave systems. Trained operators will handle not only spotter communications, but keep in constant contact with each other for target priority and selection, as well as helping out glitterboys out. Professional communications are the backbone of any modern military. These won't be random privates grabbed from anywhere, but long term professional commo troops that are veterans of the Tolkeen War and skilled in fast and frantic battlefield communications. There will be a seperate section to handle "in-base" communication between weapon crews, power armors, and the rest of the base functions and personnel. There should be three shifts of communications and designation systems soldiers. And speaking of designation systems...

Now, with the Air Defense should be radar stations. We're not talking WW-II radar, we're talking phased millimetric radar arrays sensitive enough to pick up a basketball. Additionally they should be programmed and ready for "target rich" environments, with heavy computer support to assist in radar tracking and target selection. We'll also include laser targeting systems to assist in range, elevation, and speed. Based off the old Force XXI program "wish-list" we should be able to provide our radar system operators to help the surface to air systems in picking out individual targets out of groups of thousands. (This was designed based off of Soviet/NATO worst case air defense scenarios, so we'll extrapolate better systems than old late 1980's systems) These systems will have dedicated fire control computers, and a LOT of them, complete with heuristic adaptive capability, more capable and better difference engine programming than the Skelebots.

As for the base itself, it will probably be quick-set ferrocrete, including bunkers (3 meter thick should suffice) with additional "tunnel rods" to prevent ease of tunneling in. (6" thick tungsten steel rods driving into the ground for a length of 40 feet, think oil drilling pipe) The ferrocrete "floor" should be a minimum thickness of 10 feet, 10 meters if possible. The artillery pieces should not only be fully loaded, but have 5X basic load in a 'ready area' only a few meters away. This will be constantly resupplied via forklift or borg-run pallet jack. (During Wintex me and a crew of 9 other could move 1 pallet of 8 rounds every three minutes from the ATP to the ready area. That's 80 rounds in 3 minutes, or 1,600 rounds an hour. We'll assume that Rifts has better than 10 hung over guys with crappy 15 year old rough terrain forklifts) If it's been setup, there should be an automated resupply line, robotic assist, that can shove about 100 rounds a minute into the ready area, with the robotic assisted conveyer line funnelling rounds into the artillery piece's load storage. There should be barracks, mess hall, vehicle repair and maintenance area, as well as a small recreation area. NO buildings should be built below ground, due to tunneling threat, so all of them will have to have thicker walls and ceilings than normal. NO WINDOWS, instead the use of camera and remote observation systems, with backups, multiple interlocking visibility fields, and all that fun stuff.

Directional tremor sensors will help, along with siesmic sensors. As well as using "explosive mapping" to keep a constant update on the ground around it. (Think Jurassic Park) With the constant artillery fire, as well as the impact, the mapping should be able to be almost realtime. That should show any tunnels being bored in. For those, we handle with 8" "penetrator" rounds, able to penetrate up to 50 feet of soil. We'll assume Rifts Earth has better penetrator rounds than we currently do, but that penetrator round is going to hammer the tunnels. Since modern artillery rounds can drop a LOT of rounds in a 10 foot area, we'll figure Rifts Earth can do better. According to the grid coordinate system, a properly trained crew with a spotter can drop the round within 10 feet of the point target. We'll assume that Free Quebec and the CS are as competant as modern artillery soldiers.

Vehicles should be ready for "Bug out" just in case it looks like an overrun. Add in charges to destroy in place any equipment that can't be moved quickly out, as well as charges to destroy the ammunition to prevent the bugs from getting it. Crew should have been drilled for months in mock training areas to pull out within minutes. The old reliable workhorse standard CS ACP should work good for a lot of this. With chaff and HC smoke loaded into the grenade/mortar systems to assist with the retreat.

In the center of our Firebases with the glitterboys and supporting glitterboy elements.

Once again, the base will be built with a thick layer of ferrocrete, with pre-set areas for Glitterboys to "punch in" so that they can be readied for firing. These two bases will not only contain more sophisticated and powerful communication, imaging, and targeting arrays like the Firebases. Each base will be able to coordinate targeting and radar array by themselves, and will rotate jobs, providing redundancy both during training and during the operation. Modern radar and laser systems have amazing range, so they'll be able to spot and identify the swarms at an extended ranges.

The glitterboy forces will be using fireplans, with backup from the surface to air systems, as well as the point defense. There will be dedicated loader teams. Initial firing will be probably 30-50 rounds per "force" so that while one group is being loaded the other three to five groups will still be firing. This will guarantee the lowest 'downtime' of the firing systems. They should be supplied for an "extended engagement" of several hours. Stimulants should be authorized, and the pilots should be well rested, so that they can fight for up to 48 hours. (That's a LONG time to be engaged in combat, but during Desert Storm and the initial invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan some units fought for up to 72-90 hours straight without rest or stopping, under fire for up to 3/4 of the time) If possible, there should be additional "operator teams" capable of taking over for fatigued pilots and crew-members, and a properly trained crew can replace the fatigued team in less than five minutes.

Finally, aircraft should be tasked for bombing runs, with staggered launches to provide constant attacks. This won't be one bombing run every hour or so, this will be a constant bombing attack, with constant fire missions set by the main Operations Base tactical planners. The aircraft should be using three types of munitions: Ground impact thermobaric systems, proximity detonation thermobaric fuel air systems, and of course, good old elevation set MOAB systems, since we don't want to go nuclear.

Initially the aircraft will drop bombs in hive territory, slowly drawing back toward the target environment, "luring" out the Xiticix forces toward the set up base.

Artillery will be used initially to drop FASCAM rounds (FAmily of SCAtterable Mines) on all approaches. This will drop mines, including "Arial Deployment" rounds (currently used for "top down" attacks on armored vehicles) to pop up and strike at low-flying bugs. Modern AD mines are capable of in-air position shifting in order to properly "attack" targets, so there won't be any problem with properly orientating and deploying the explosively forged penetrator at any low-flying bugs. (We'll assume they've been desinged properly and can be "launched" up to 100m in the air. Now, with the current generation of "self-healing" minefields and mine deployment systems, the mines would be able to rapidly shift position to cover any expended areas to ensure proper coverage. Modern "self-healing" fields also deploy up to 200% of the active mines for "reserve" in case of "mass movement" in the area. Now, the minefields should be REALLY thickly emplaced. These mines are smart enough to pop up and hit one walking on the ground in the top of the head. (Pop up several feet, rotate, and fire the EFP straight down through the top of the bug's head) Several artillery pieces per base will be tasked with "reloading" the minefields, to make sure they cannot just "rush" through field.

As 8" shells (Rocket Assisted High Explosive for example) currently have a reach over over 20 miles, we'll assume advances in propellant systems and barrel tensile strength have enabled "rocket assisted" rounds to reach much father than modern day systems. This means that the artillery will probably be used to draw in the bugs by performing Fire For Effect missions in Xiticix territory. Combined with direct bombing runs on the Hive or the close in hive territory, the Xiticix should react by following the bombing runs toward the "source" which is the bases above. Additionally, proper prepardness should have dropped (via artillery) "decoy" units into Xiticix territory, which will look, smell, and have light energy sources like Glitterboys. (Think of inflatable rafts being dropped via parachute slowed canisters when the "shell" bursts about 50 feet off the ground)

Pilots should be trained to have confidence in the target selection systems, and have the system choose the targets, which will allow the glitterboys target enemies at a much further distance than normal, since the targeting telemetry will be determined by the radar and sensor arrays, and refined by the large dedicated targeting computers housed in the bases. Pilot control will mainly be for targeting failure, specific fire missions, or situations outside the parameters of the mission.

With any luck Free Quebec should have Skelebots available. The Skelebots will be charged with driving vehicles forward to act as short range air defense systems. These vehicles should have a 360 degree rotating pintle mount. Mounted should be two sets of 4-6 heavy railguns, one on each side, loaded with plenty of ammunition. Additionally there should be 1-2 "reload vehicles" containing canisters that the skelebot teams can rapidly reload. While these systems are "disposable" they'll be pulled back before they are in danger of being overrun, to get the most use out of them for as long as possible.

Additionally there should be skelebot manned "foxholes" with hunter-seeker teams of skelebots armed with SAM packs. These troops ARE disposable, and lures more than anything. They'll be used for forward observation and spotting, and once they are overrun or engaged with danger-close, the artillery will fire on the per-designated targets.

By the time the Xiticix even get close enough for the Glitterboys to engage, they should be reeling from the pounding. The Hive queen might very well have puleld them back, realizing that they are getting chewed up really bad, and mindless aggression is going to lose the day. In that case the aerial bombing of the Hive should commence immediately, with the Glitterboys advancing to per-determined positions, under cover of the artillery crews and the air support. Once the queen or her advisers "ID" the "real" threat as the Glitterboys advancing, they *should* send out another force to take care of the Glitterboys. At that time the Glitterboy crews should fall back at top speed back to the bases in a maneuver that should have been practiced for weeks before deployments.

With practiced, professional movement, prepared battle plans, fallback and secondary plans, the HIve will be in serious trouble within hours at the most.

Dong a few "practice" runs on smaller hives and hive outposts should provide experience for the operation personnel, as well as show any problems with equipment or doctrine. You NEVER mount the full operation without a LOT of practice runs, a LOT of training, and making sure that everyone is skilled, competant, and confident in not only the doctrine, the tactical/strategic planning, and the equipment. Before even the high-speed aircraft recons start there should be weeks of strategy planning, equipment examination and (if necessary) retooling, and planning.

Training, training, training. The soldiers should be selected, not only from experienced veterans, but from crews who have been trained on the most recent equipment. Each unit, when put together, should be trained together in small units (company and platoon sized) for weeks, then in larger units, then larger units, until you have entire force training. Training should go from "everything is perfect" to "It all went to hell from the get-go" to "they have a hundred times what we thought, we don't have enough ammunition, and we've lost contact with everyone else and the fire control systems are down!"

All together, it would take about a year to set up the scenario, including training and equipment retooling. This would be an operation that would take up thousands of troops, billions of credits of equipment, and millions of credits in ammunition. But it would also set the stage to slowly push back and eventually destroy the Xiticix presence on North America.

Of course, from what I've seen of the "genius military planning" out of the CS, they'll probably just send the Glitterboys running in without ammunition, firing flares widely, playing Flight of the Bumblebee on their speakers and crewed by lobotomized skelebots running on a single unpatched copy of Windows ME.

Then wonder why they lost.

I will admit, I went a bit overboard from the parameters, but the scenario put forward as it was in the first post is exactly what almost lost the CS the Tolkeen War.
"The Tolkeen War was a disaster. Yes, we achieved victory, but we exposed grievous errors in our training doctrine and unit METL's. We must seek to address these issues, we must rethink what we know or this nation will perish from the Earth. Should we not learn from the hard lessons of the Tolkeen War, our bones shall be ground to dust."-Ross Underhill
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Dr Megaverse
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Dr Megaverse »

T-Willard wrote:If there are the following:

1000 is 480 Side Kicks, 106 reload teams, 100-300 other power armors/combat borgs/special troops (I will go with 300 for argument's sake). This leaves 114 troops for mechanics, medics, communications and logistics. Now lets make those 300 random PA's/Cyborgs: 50 Power Troopers, 25 Pale Death SAMAS, 25 V-SAM, 150 SAMAS, 20 Imprimer Borgs, 20 Slasher Borgs, 15 Standard Heavy Combat Borgs (RUE version).

As for the Glitter Boys themselves, if you have half of them that require ammo fire while the others are held in reserve until the first half needs to reload and also have the ones using energy based weapons (unlimited ammo) keep up constant covering fire you can make the ammo stretch out a bit longer. With 50% of the Glitter Boys being the original type (with Rimouski Weapon Package and vibro-sword) they can all fire 128,000 rounds before reloading. The Taurus GB can fire 1536 mortars (assuming they are all using the mortars cannons instead of heavy laser cannons). The 384 Glitter Girls can reload their own weapons (two actions) and still fire energy blasts, putting out 38,400 explosive shells before reloading.


First of all, 1,000 support personnel is waaay too low. On the average, according to military doctrine I remember (from strategy and tactics courses) there should be at least 4 support personnel per person. This accounts for: Ammunition handlers, medics, paperwork, military intelligence, mechanics, cooks, supply, and everything else.

With that in mind, some changes need to be made.

Let's say this is a REAL military operation by Free Quebec, with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States.

First of all, you'll want to send up an advance party to scout the area and find a suitable location for the following:

Firebases, support bases, logistics bases.

Once a location is discovered, construction crews and security teams should be sent to set the bases up. The security teams will need to destroy any Xiticix scouts to prevent the full scope of what is being built to be discovered. This is vitally important. Unless there is an overwhelming reason that it should be built in Xiticix "territory" then for best effort it should be built 2-10 miles outside of the "territory". Construction, with Rifts Earth techniques, should take hours or days at the most. Both before construction begins and once construction is complete, high velocity aircraft should be used to "map" the surrounding territory in at least 30 miles in all directions, including high resolution photographs, laser ground contour imaging, and multiple "wavelength" imaging should be made. Leading up to the site selection, mapping should be done over a period of 30 days, allowing analysts to examine the images for any changes of any type during the time.

The CS should be providing anti-air vehicles. These will out out a LOT of flak. Our strike force (Serpent Seven Actual) will place 4 different AA sections. Two behind our pirmary strike force, one to the left, one to the right. These should consist of enough vehicles to put out enough flak, by themselves, to handle large "swarms". Those will be firebases Alpha, Bravo, Sigma, Epsilon.

At these firebases should also be: Artillery vehicles, ammunition reloads, communication hubs, and air defense systems, including "air defense artillery" stations. There will be three types of air defense systems: Long range (Probably SAM based) as well as medium range (Probably rocket-assisted air defense clusters), as well as "point defense" systems, more than likely the classic pintle mount with 2 sets of 4 railguns. You'd want a LOT of lead in the air as fast as possible for the point defense systems.

We'll dig in and station our artillery here. Not air defense artillery, but honest to god eight inch artillery systems (preferably self-propelled) as well as the CS/FQ version of the MRLS wagon. Since we have 4 firebases, we'll divide up the 100 piece brigade into 4 sections. The two side ones will have 20 arty pieces and 20 arty wagons each. The two in the rear will have 30 of each per wagon. The arty pieces and MRLS systems should have literally thousands of artillery rounds and MRLS reloads available. Additionally we'll add 4.2" ERLIX mortar systems (laser guided munitions capable of in-flight trajectory adjustments) loaded up with variable fuzing. The two most common types will be elevation set (for airbursts) as well as proximity (to use on the "clouds" or any marching formation). The mortars should be the new systems, like the modern mobile systems in use by the US Army and USMC. These have internal and external magazines, capable of loading systems, and be able to be adjusted via computers with a high rate of fire.

(During Desert Shield, before the Ground War, Logbase Echo shipped out approximately 25,000 or more 8" artillery rounds PER DAY, which were all used by the next day)

Communications should be multiple systems: Hardline fiber-optic buried cable, laser whisker systems, frequency agile radio systems, micro-wave systems. Trained operators will handle not only spotter communications, but keep in constant contact with each other for target priority and selection, as well as helping out glitterboys out. Professional communications are the backbone of any modern military. These won't be random privates grabbed from anywhere, but long term professional commo troops that are veterans of the Tolkeen War and skilled in fast and frantic battlefield communications. There will be a seperate section to handle "in-base" communication between weapon crews, power armors, and the rest of the base functions and personnel. There should be three shifts of communications and designation systems soldiers. And speaking of designation systems...

Now, with the Air Defense should be radar stations. We're not talking WW-II radar, we're talking phased millimetric radar arrays sensitive enough to pick up a basketball. Additionally they should be programmed and ready for "target rich" environments, with heavy computer support to assist in radar tracking and target selection. We'll also include laser targeting systems to assist in range, elevation, and speed. Based off the old Force XXI program "wish-list" we should be able to provide our radar system operators to help the surface to air systems in picking out individual targets out of groups of thousands. (This was designed based off of Soviet/NATO worst case air defense scenarios, so we'll extrapolate better systems than old late 1980's systems) These systems will have dedicated fire control computers, and a LOT of them, complete with heuristic adaptive capability, more capable and better difference engine programming than the Skelebots.

As for the base itself, it will probably be quick-set ferrocrete, including bunkers (3 meter thick should suffice) with additional "tunnel rods" to prevent ease of tunneling in. (6" thick tungsten steel rods driving into the ground for a length of 40 feet, think oil drilling pipe) The ferrocrete "floor" should be a minimum thickness of 10 feet, 10 meters if possible. The artillery pieces should not only be fully loaded, but have 5X basic load in a 'ready area' only a few meters away. This will be constantly resupplied via forklift or borg-run pallet jack. (During Wintex me and a crew of 9 other could move 1 pallet of 8 rounds every three minutes from the ATP to the ready area. That's 80 rounds in 3 minutes, or 1,600 rounds an hour. We'll assume that Rifts has better than 10 hung over guys with crappy 15 year old rough terrain forklifts) If it's been setup, there should be an automated resupply line, robotic assist, that can shove about 100 rounds a minute into the ready area, with the robotic assisted conveyer line funnelling rounds into the artillery piece's load storage. There should be barracks, mess hall, vehicle repair and maintenance area, as well as a small recreation area. NO buildings should be built below ground, due to tunneling threat, so all of them will have to have thicker walls and ceilings than normal. NO WINDOWS, instead the use of camera and remote observation systems, with backups, multiple interlocking visibility fields, and all that fun stuff.

Directional tremor sensors will help, along with siesmic sensors. As well as using "explosive mapping" to keep a constant update on the ground around it. (Think Jurassic Park) With the constant artillery fire, as well as the impact, the mapping should be able to be almost realtime. That should show any tunnels being bored in. For those, we handle with 8" "penetrator" rounds, able to penetrate up to 50 feet of soil. We'll assume Rifts Earth has better penetrator rounds than we currently do, but that penetrator round is going to hammer the tunnels. Since modern artillery rounds can drop a LOT of rounds in a 10 foot area, we'll figure Rifts Earth can do better. According to the grid coordinate system, a properly trained crew with a spotter can drop the round within 10 feet of the point target. We'll assume that Free Quebec and the CS are as competant as modern artillery soldiers.

Vehicles should be ready for "Bug out" just in case it looks like an overrun. Add in charges to destroy in place any equipment that can't be moved quickly out, as well as charges to destroy the ammunition to prevent the bugs from getting it. Crew should have been drilled for months in mock training areas to pull out within minutes. The old reliable workhorse standard CS ACP should work good for a lot of this. With chaff and HC smoke loaded into the grenade/mortar systems to assist with the retreat.

In the center of our Firebases with the glitterboys and supporting glitterboy elements.

Once again, the base will be built with a thick layer of ferrocrete, with pre-set areas for Glitterboys to "punch in" so that they can be readied for firing. These two bases will not only contain more sophisticated and powerful communication, imaging, and targeting arrays like the Firebases. Each base will be able to coordinate targeting and radar array by themselves, and will rotate jobs, providing redundancy both during training and during the operation. Modern radar and laser systems have amazing range, so they'll be able to spot and identify the swarms at an extended ranges.

The glitterboy forces will be using fireplans, with backup from the surface to air systems, as well as the point defense. There will be dedicated loader teams. Initial firing will be probably 30-50 rounds per "force" so that while one group is being loaded the other three to five groups will still be firing. This will guarantee the lowest 'downtime' of the firing systems. They should be supplied for an "extended engagement" of several hours. Stimulants should be authorized, and the pilots should be well rested, so that they can fight for up to 48 hours. (That's a LONG time to be engaged in combat, but during Desert Storm and the initial invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan some units fought for up to 72-90 hours straight without rest or stopping, under fire for up to 3/4 of the time) If possible, there should be additional "operator teams" capable of taking over for fatigued pilots and crew-members, and a properly trained crew can replace the fatigued team in less than five minutes.

Finally, aircraft should be tasked for bombing runs, with staggered launches to provide constant attacks. This won't be one bombing run every hour or so, this will be a constant bombing attack, with constant fire missions set by the main Operations Base tactical planners. The aircraft should be using three types of munitions: Ground impact thermobaric systems, proximity detonation thermobaric fuel air systems, and of course, good old elevation set MOAB systems, since we don't want to go nuclear.

Initially the aircraft will drop bombs in hive territory, slowly drawing back toward the target environment, "luring" out the Xiticix forces toward the set up base.

Artillery will be used initially to drop FASCAM rounds (FAmily of SCAtterable Mines) on all approaches. This will drop mines, including "Arial Deployment" rounds (currently used for "top down" attacks on armored vehicles) to pop up and strike at low-flying bugs. Modern AD mines are capable of in-air position shifting in order to properly "attack" targets, so there won't be any problem with properly orientating and deploying the explosively forged penetrator at any low-flying bugs. (We'll assume they've been desinged properly and can be "launched" up to 100m in the air. Now, with the current generation of "self-healing" minefields and mine deployment systems, the mines would be able to rapidly shift position to cover any expended areas to ensure proper coverage. Modern "self-healing" fields also deploy up to 200% of the active mines for "reserve" in case of "mass movement" in the area. Now, the minefields should be REALLY thickly emplaced. These mines are smart enough to pop up and hit one walking on the ground in the top of the head. (Pop up several feet, rotate, and fire the EFP straight down through the top of the bug's head) Several artillery pieces per base will be tasked with "reloading" the minefields, to make sure they cannot just "rush" through field.

As 8" shells (Rocket Assisted High Explosive for example) currently have a reach over over 20 miles, we'll assume advances in propellant systems and barrel tensile strength have enabled "rocket assisted" rounds to reach much father than modern day systems. This means that the artillery will probably be used to draw in the bugs by performing Fire For Effect missions in Xiticix territory. Combined with direct bombing runs on the Hive or the close in hive territory, the Xiticix should react by following the bombing runs toward the "source" which is the bases above. Additionally, proper prepardness should have dropped (via artillery) "decoy" units into Xiticix territory, which will look, smell, and have light energy sources like Glitterboys. (Think of inflatable rafts being dropped via parachute slowed canisters when the "shell" bursts about 50 feet off the ground)

Pilots should be trained to have confidence in the target selection systems, and have the system choose the targets, which will allow the glitterboys target enemies at a much further distance than normal, since the targeting telemetry will be determined by the radar and sensor arrays, and refined by the large dedicated targeting computers housed in the bases. Pilot control will mainly be for targeting failure, specific fire missions, or situations outside the parameters of the mission.

With any luck Free Quebec should have Skelebots available. The Skelebots will be charged with driving vehicles forward to act as short range air defense systems. These vehicles should have a 360 degree rotating pintle mount. Mounted should be two sets of 4-6 heavy railguns, one on each side, loaded with plenty of ammunition. Additionally there should be 1-2 "reload vehicles" containing canisters that the skelebot teams can rapidly reload. While these systems are "disposable" they'll be pulled back before they are in danger of being overrun, to get the most use out of them for as long as possible.

Additionally there should be skelebot manned "foxholes" with hunter-seeker teams of skelebots armed with SAM packs. These troops ARE disposable, and lures more than anything. They'll be used for forward observation and spotting, and once they are overrun or engaged with danger-close, the artillery will fire on the per-designated targets.

By the time the Xiticix even get close enough for the Glitterboys to engage, they should be reeling from the pounding. The Hive queen might very well have puleld them back, realizing that they are getting chewed up really bad, and mindless aggression is going to lose the day. In that case the aerial bombing of the Hive should commence immediately, with the Glitterboys advancing to per-determined positions, under cover of the artillery crews and the air support. Once the queen or her advisers "ID" the "real" threat as the Glitterboys advancing, they *should* send out another force to take care of the Glitterboys. At that time the Glitterboy crews should fall back at top speed back to the bases in a maneuver that should have been practiced for weeks before deployments.

With practiced, professional movement, prepared battle plans, fallback and secondary plans, the HIve will be in serious trouble within hours at the most.

Dong a few "practice" runs on smaller hives and hive outposts should provide experience for the operation personnel, as well as show any problems with equipment or doctrine. You NEVER mount the full operation without a LOT of practice runs, a LOT of training, and making sure that everyone is skilled, competant, and confident in not only the doctrine, the tactical/strategic planning, and the equipment. Before even the high-speed aircraft recons start there should be weeks of strategy planning, equipment examination and (if necessary) retooling, and planning.

Training, training, training. The soldiers should be selected, not only from experienced veterans, but from crews who have been trained on the most recent equipment. Each unit, when put together, should be trained together in small units (company and platoon sized) for weeks, then in larger units, then larger units, until you have entire force training. Training should go from "everything is perfect" to "It all went to hell from the get-go" to "they have a hundred times what we thought, we don't have enough ammunition, and we've lost contact with everyone else and the fire control systems are down!"

All together, it would take about a year to set up the scenario, including training and equipment retooling. This would be an operation that would take up thousands of troops, billions of credits of equipment, and millions of credits in ammunition. But it would also set the stage to slowly push back and eventually destroy the Xiticix presence on North America.

Of course, from what I've seen of the "genius military planning" out of the CS, they'll probably just send the Glitterboys running in without ammunition, firing flares widely, playing Flight of the Bumblebee on their speakers and crewed by lobotomized skelebots running on a single unpatched copy of Windows ME.

Then wonder why they lost.

I will admit, I went a bit overboard from the parameters, but the scenario put forward as it was in the first post is exactly what almost lost the CS the Tolkeen War.



Very well thought out! It's nice to have some modern day comparisons for accurately scaling up Rifts tech! A thoroughly enjoyable read! I especially like the telemetry systems aiding in GB fire control. Their immense range is not only more effective but extended due to good telemetry systems, and as their range is a key aspect of the thought experiment that's a genius idea! Thanks for posting T!
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mercury »

Well written (I think I need a smoke!) :)

I like the idea of continual bombardment. Since I am guessing they require sleep periods like any living creature, some sleep deprivation experiments on a few captured xits could be useful. Idea being to keep them awake 24/7 until they are mentally and physically weakened enough to hopefully make some key strategic mistakes.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Talavar »

I don't think there's any question that a full-on assault from the CS or Free Quebec wouldn't destroy the Xiticix. The bugs' only defence against a long range missile bombardment/bombing campaign is grin, take it, and hope some queens survive to reproduce later.

The original poster wasn't asking 'could Free Quebec beat the Xiticix,' but what one Glitter Boy unit could achieve.
- If I never hear real world military buffs complaining about Rifts weapons technology again it'll be too soon
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Dr Megaverse »

Talavar wrote:I don't think there's any question that a full-on assault from the CS or Free Quebec wouldn't destroy the Xiticix. The bugs' only defence against a long range missile bombardment/bombing campaign is grin, take it, and hope some queens survive to reproduce later.

The original poster wasn't asking 'could Free Quebec beat the Xiticix,' but what one Glitter Boy unit could achieve.


Two important things to note. T acknowledged he was going outside the original thought experiment with his post. Also, I'm pretty sure Mack asked folks to avoid the kind of minutia involved in number crunching how many Xits there are, yet it happened...
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

kaid wrote:Really the way to fight xiticix at least to cut their numbers down to size is aerial bombardment. LRM's and high altitude bombers. If you are flying at 40k feet flying at 300-400 mph the xiticix are not even going to see you and even if they see you have no hope of engaging you. Bomb the hives over and over and over and over again. You won't get them all and won't kill the queen but doing this you could kill millions upon millions of them risk free especially somebody like FQ who is not even that close to the hivelands. On the off chance the hives were able to some how backtrack where your planes were coming from which is doubtful you would have a huge amount of warning with any kind of scout flights and could use LRM/MRM/Air power to whittle away at the raiding party while a GB legion or two comes up to play short stop.

Eventually you would have to go into the hive remnants to clean up the queens but it is much easier to do this when you have wiped the majority of their surface forces off the map. The only real limitation to this fight is ammunition supply. Can you keep the bombs coming fast enough but since you are just bombarding a huge area you don't need any kind of seeker heads just old style B52 carpet bombing.


XI 87
Even if the CS uses extreme force (even nuclear weapons?) to pulverize the aboveground structures and Xiticix defenders, an estimated 35%-55% would survive underground, which is also where the Queens are hidden. This means troops will be required to go tunnel by tunnel, probably trying to seal off one section at a time, and killing every creature they encounter. The presence of Diggers and Workers with their ability to dig tunnels and excavate at amazing speed makes sealing off sections and containing the enemy unlikely (10% chance). Even if it were possible, this is an incredibly time-consuming, difficult, and deadly operaton, but some concerted effort to purge the tunnels is necessary, because if even one Queen survives, the Xiticix will repopulate and the nightmare will be reborn.
Another problem is that once CS forces are committed, there is no turning back. The Xiticix are such that a mass assault upon them will earn the Coalition forces their lasting enmity. From that day forward the Xiticix would see all Dead Boys and any CS vehicle, bot or power armor with the Death's Head motif as a mortal enemy to be struck down and destroyed whenever encounters. Furthermore, unless crippled, the Xiticix are likely to target CS communities for retaliatory extermination.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Nightmask »

While a well-thought out and extensive post one small point, Free Quebec has no Skelebots and in fact not only refused to use them but feared they were meant to be used against them. So any disposable AI troops FQ has if any would be of their own construction or acquired from Triax.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Subjugator »

I wonder what radiation would do to them.

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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mercury »

Subjugator wrote:I wonder what radiation would do to them.

"Dunno. Lets capture one and find out!" 8)
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mercury »

Nightmask wrote:While a well-thought out and extensive post one small point, Free Quebec has no Skelebots and in fact not only refused to use them but feared they were meant to be used against them. So any disposable AI troops FQ has if any would be of their own construction or acquired from Triax.

While I don't wish to read that wall-o-text over again, it sounded like he was suggesting some sort of joint venture:

"...with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States"

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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by SittingBull »

Would be nice for everyone to make sense, but that doesn't work sadly.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Subjugator wrote:I wonder what radiation would do to them.

/Sub


I don't think they're listed as having any kind of immunities, but insect physiology is kind of odd, and the fungus they eat is mentioned as being resistant to radiation.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mercury wrote:
Nightmask wrote:While a well-thought out and extensive post one small point, Free Quebec has no Skelebots and in fact not only refused to use them but feared they were meant to be used against them. So any disposable AI troops FQ has if any would be of their own construction or acquired from Triax.

While I don't wish to read that wall-o-text over again, it sounded like he was suggesting some sort of joint venture:

"...with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States"

If you are going to fight for your species right to stay on your own planet, best to put aside your differences and kick some butt togethere!


No, he says 'with any luck FQ should have skelebots available', that's not a joint-venture bit of language but 'well they were formerly members of the CS so probaby have skelebots available' when in fact they don't. It's unlikely they even have the specs required to manufacture them. The split between FQ and the CS is also quite fresh and unlikely they could work together given the level of betrayal each side sees from the other. Individual units might work together but joint battles seem remote.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mercury »

Nightmask wrote:
Mercury wrote:
Nightmask wrote:While a well-thought out and extensive post one small point, Free Quebec has no Skelebots and in fact not only refused to use them but feared they were meant to be used against them. So any disposable AI troops FQ has if any would be of their own construction or acquired from Triax.

While I don't wish to read that wall-o-text over again, it sounded like he was suggesting some sort of joint venture:

"...with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States"

If you are going to fight for your species right to stay on your own planet, best to put aside your differences and kick some butt togethere!


No, he says 'with any luck FQ should have skelebots available', that's not a joint-venture bit of language but 'well they were formerly members of the CS so probaby have skelebots available' when in fact they don't. It's unlikely they even have the specs required to manufacture them. The split between FQ and the CS is also quite fresh and unlikely they could work together given the level of betrayal each side sees from the other. Individual units might work together but joint battles seem remote.


My apologies Nightmask! I was assuming (my bad) that the situation would be dire enough be either stand together and fight, or risk an ultimate eradication of humans from this area when the xits finally decide to expand (what other circumstance would justify that you deploy a legion?). Clearly though, CS and FQ would rather avoid a partnership, just like the USA would not ally with Iran or North Korea.

Anyways, sorry to derail the thread and drift off topic from the original question, just felt like chipping in! :oops:
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Nightmask wrote:No, he says 'with any luck FQ should have skelebots available', that's not a joint-venture bit of language but 'well they were formerly members of the CS so probaby have skelebots available' when in fact they don't. It's unlikely they even have the specs required to manufacture them. The split between FQ and the CS is also quite fresh and unlikely they could work together given the level of betrayal each side sees from the other. Individual units might work together but joint battles seem remote.


not to mention as i recall, the skelebots were one of the things free quebec was busy being particularly upset about, possibly due to a conversation that went something like this:

Chi-town: "oh, by the way, we're going to be adding a legion of robots equipped with variable frequency lasers that only have any particular reason to exist for shooting the glitter boys which are primarily used by Free Quebec to our military. Any questions?"
Free Quebec: "Wait... what was that where you sort of mumbled in the middle again?"
Chi-town: "Errr.... I have no idea what you're talking about. By the way, there's these totally false rumours going around that we might be possibly maybe slightly be preparing to go to war with you, but I promise that's totally false. You absolutely don't need to build up your armies to protect yourself from us at all, so don't waste any resources on petty things like 'building up your army' or 'protecting your sovereignty', kay?"
Free Quebec: "Uhhhh.... riiiight. Excuse me a moment, i'm just going to accidentally push this button which totally doesn't kick our secret glitter boy factories into overdrive at all a few times, don't mind me."
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by SittingBull »

o.O Huh?
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by eliakon »

Gryphon wrote:*Hive Queen notes improved levels of coherent assault tactics and unified threats...*

*Hive Queen opts to "go deep* for survival, and instead of ordering her "remaining" troops (those that survived the above reprisal attempts) to instead disperse in groups of ~100, and to engage non-military targets. The humans protect their own equally as vehemently, but their technology it too superior at this stage. Engage them where they are weak, force them to react to this counter assault on their soft underbelly, and they must respond. Even if it fails to achieve a great deal, is causes the enemy to delay or perhaps even withdraw from their assault, and buys time. Time enough to develop new stratagems, new techniques using the native talents the Hive Queen so deeply understands.*

"We are the Xiticixs. Resistance is futile, your culture is irrelevant. Your biomass will be consumed and added to out own!"

Just a thought...

EDIT: @ Shark_Force
Totally amused by the reduction of the entire C.S./F.Q. strategic problems being reduced to what is basically Tiny Toons adventures levels! Awesome dude! *Hands Shark_Force an Internetz!*

EDIT v2.0: Fixed a few typing errors. Note this is half a joke, and half a legitimate response to the clearly unwinnable situation laid out so far. That last line though? Yup, that right there is a bad joke...


Are these Xitcixs or Tyranids..... :lol:
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Mack »

Appreciate all the responses to the original post. :ok:

I'm a little surprised at how effective most people believe the Glitterboys would be, but that's why I tossed this onto the forum.

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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by T-Willard »

Nightmask wrote:
Mercury wrote:
Nightmask wrote:While a well-thought out and extensive post one small point, Free Quebec has no Skelebots and in fact not only refused to use them but feared they were meant to be used against them. So any disposable AI troops FQ has if any would be of their own construction or acquired from Triax.

While I don't wish to read that wall-o-text over again, it sounded like he was suggesting some sort of joint venture:

"...with the support of Chi-Town and the rest of the Coalition States"

If you are going to fight for your species right to stay on your own planet, best to put aside your differences and kick some butt togethere!


No, he says 'with any luck FQ should have skelebots available', that's not a joint-venture bit of language but 'well they were formerly members of the CS so probaby have skelebots available' when in fact they don't. It's unlikely they even have the specs required to manufacture them. The split between FQ and the CS is also quite fresh and unlikely they could work together given the level of betrayal each side sees from the other. Individual units might work together but joint battles seem remote.

Sorry, I actually WAS envisioning a joint FQ/CS military venture, since the CS has a division that has experience moving through the Hivelands that would be foolish to throw away.

My post was more mental masturbation, and I admit to going WAAAAY outside the scope of the initial post.

But thought experiments are fun, no?
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by say652 »

glitterboys in the second round.......guillotine choke.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Tor »

Giving the GB the benefit of the doubt in that he manages to shoot down a single Xiticix patroller (say a standard warrior) I'm not sure why we assume they're just going to swarm him in an easily visible mass from the sky.

As soon as they realize they're getting picked off, they're probably going to go landside and use the terrain to close in on the GB. They all have the 'detect ambush' skill so they're not going to advance like idiots. They all navigate land BETTER than they navigate air, so they can probably find a route from lower ground where hills and trees will obscure or block direct shots until they close in close enough to use their TK rifles to target the boom gun.

For a major threat like a GB, odds are a Super-Warrior will be informed and lead the attack. They know how to do advanced things such as Prowl and apply Intelligence. They'll probably get closer and call in some Warriors with Resin Spitter rifles to clog the boomgun, affix the GB's legs and arms to prevent maneuvering, not to mention Hunters and Leapers (both Camouflage experts) to make that pathway to the target safe.

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Icefalcon wrote:that many pieces of large equipment across the ground is going to cause tunnels close to the surface to collapse. The GB legion is not going to willingly fight on unstable ground of that nature. Of course they have no way of knowing until one or more of them collapse a tunnel under them and fall in.
Preconstructed tunnels are likely to be reinforced with MDC resin so it would only be the freshest tunnels at risk for caving in.

Let's also keep in mind that Diggers know how to make traps (they have the CWC skill) and so can simply design ground over tunnels to collapse based no their own criteria.

A GB weighs 1.2 tons, so they could set their traps so only collapse into resin spike pits only if something 1 ton heavy steps on it. While Xiticix are heavy guys, the only things more than a ton are diggers and Queens, and even in that case, in the rare instances when they go above-ground, they are capable of flying or simply skirting the traps, since they could put scent warning triggers wherever there are traps.

For this reason, any land-based support for attacks against Xiticix lands are going to be very easily crippled. Diggers would have networks EVERYWHERE, and could easily get under you while fighting defensively.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Shark_Force »

*facepalm*

this is what i get for linking to a thread from a year ago in a current thread, i guess =S

necromancy 0.o
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Nightmask »

Shark_Force wrote:*facepalm*

this is what i get for linking to a thread from a year ago in a current thread, i guess =S

necromancy 0.o


Not so bad really, around a year compared to some from nearly 10 years ago we've had resurrected recently.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Tor »

At least it's still relevant, the Xiticix are a dangerous threat.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Svartalf »

Given that the Xiticix have a huge advantage in mobility and numbers, I doubt the GBs would make a sizeable dent before being destroyed by TK blasts and hand to hand attacks...

Of course, a well integrated bunch of FQ GBs, with Gigi's, Tauruses and tarantulas, with sidekicks for air cover might use square defensive formation and make an orderly retreat and try to pull a Holmes.
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by Tor »

I think a single Digger would destroy a Glitter Boy :)
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Re: Glitterboy Legion versus an Xiticix Hive!

Unread post by wyrmraker »

I remember reading this thread a while ago, and coming up with a solution for the Xiticix threat. Using Rifts-era chemistry, the scientists at one of the Coalition's R&D labs creates a granulated Mega-Damage explosive fire powder with it's own oxygen supply. Think MD flash powder that burns underwater.

Utelizing the traits of the Xiticix towers themselves, high-altitude bombers drop barrels full of this powder over the Hivelands, all on an altitude deployment of 3000 feet to just open the barrels (not ignite the powder). Do this drop a couple times a day for three weeks. Utelizing the natural air currents generated by the towers to supply the tunnels with air, the interior becomes coated with the room-temperature stable powder.

On the third week, drop several barrels over the hive, allow some of the powder to get drawn in, and then drop an explosive charge barrel designed to set off the powder, and then the bomber pilot kicks on the afterburners; he/she doesn't want to be there for this one.

The effect works itself out properly for thermodynamic compression in an enclosed space with a Fuel-Air Explosive Device. The towers would erupt in explosive flame, practically blasting them off the face of the earth. The tunnels just under the surface, faced with this kind of shockwave, collapse violently as the flames racefaster and faster into every room in the hive. Within two minutes, the interior of the hive is ablaze with flames that can't be extinguished with anything the Xiticix have access to. Within ten minutes, the tunnels are sealed off and there is no breathable oxygen in the hive, only soot and carbon. Everything inside that survived the firestorm dies of asphyxiation.

Just a mental excercise in adjusted thermodynamic physics.
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