Sub-Demons, who are they?

[SolCannibal]

Does anyone beside Gargoyles and Brodkill get called this?
AFAIK, they are the only beings defined this way.

[Kagashi]

Daemonix (SoT 2) are included in the "sub-demon" category. Vyarnect (Psyscape) can be considered as well, but Psyscape is unclear if they are or not. Personally, I think Vyarnect fit the description and should be included.

[SolCannibal]

Daemonix (SoT 2) are included in the "sub-demon" category. Vyarnect (Psyscape) can be considered as well, but Psyscape is unclear if they are or not. Personally, I think Vyarnect fit the description and should be included.

Oh, the Daemonix - i really have to take some time to do a decent read about them, they are quite curious things, those dinossaurs of demonology.

Vyarnect? Never heard of those, have to check the Psyscape book when i can them. I'm guessing the pseudo-demons from PFRPG might count as sub-demons too, considering their origins. Anyway, thanks for the indication, i'll check them out.

Would like to see someday a list of the "demonic critters" from the books that are not tied to Hades or Dyval and how do they fit in the "subdemon/devilkin", "lesser demon/deevil", "greater demon/deevil". The "Minions of Darkness" of Land of Damned: Chaos Lands are one of the few cases where i remember clear information about some races.

[cornholioprime]

Daemonix (SoT 2) are included in the "sub-demon" category. Vyarnect (Psyscape) can be considered as well, but Psyscape is unclear if they are or not. Personally, I think Vyarnect fit the description and should be included.

Oh, the Daemonix - i really have to take some time to do a decent read about them, they are quite curious things, those dinossaurs of demonology.

Vyarnect? Never heard of those, have to check the Psyscape book when i can them. I'm guessing the pseudo-demons from PFRPG might count as sub-demons too, considering their origins. Anyway, thanks for the indication, i'll check them out.

Would like to see someday a list of the "demonic critters" from the books that are not tied to Hades or Dyval and how do they fit in the "subdemon/devilkin", "lesser demon/deevil", "greater demon/deevil". The "Minions of Darkness" of Land of Damned: Chaos Lands are one of the few cases where i remember clear information about some races.

As far as I can tell, Kevin created the whole "sub-demon" category on the fly, waaaaaay back in the day, so that he could have a group of creatures that are just "natural" enough so that they can take cybernetic implants (not usually possible with most True Supernatural Creatures or Creatures of Magic), but are still considered to be supernatural beings.

Probably just a "cool-sounding term/concept, so I'll adopt it as my own" sort of thing.

[glitterboy2098]

IMO, 'sub-demons' are largely creatures of magic with demonic looking features. unlike true demons/deevils, whoch are supernatural beings (and thus more constructs of magic than biology), sub-demons are just living creatures with special powers and evil appearance. unlike true demons, they don't just get banished to their home dimension when killed, but actually die, and they generally are not as magically/psionically powerful. true demons and deevils use sub-demons as disposable auxiliaries and shock troops, since the sub-demon population can renew itself far faster than that of true-demons/deevils. for demon society, the status of sub-demon is wrapped up in connotations of inferiority, which is why some supernatural creatures (like the Daemonix) are 'sub-demons' even though by 'biology' they would be true demons. basically those supernatural beings which the 'true demons' consider inferior will usually be counted in the 'sub-demon' catagory.

[SolCannibal]

Yes, the fact the Gargoyles have better stats than lots of creatures in Rifts - damn, the typical gargoyle grunt is not much behind a godling in physical capabilities - has always bothered me as it really doesn't fit with "Orcs of the Megaverse" treatment they seem to get.

In fact their SCD versions are MUCH more modest, one of the reasons i'm tempted to adapt their SDC/Hit point totals as MDC instead in my Minion War game, kind of equaling them with the Host of Dyval and other critters.

[Shark_Force]

well, dog boys are pretty much superior as soldiers to humans, but haven't taken over the CS because of their pack mentality. i think that's supposed to be kinda how the gargoyles work too... you'll notice it mentions that the gargoyle empire accepted a bunch of non-gargoyles in as well.

i would suspect that the strongest creature is basically acknowledged as the leader. so a baal-rog may not be able to take on hundreds of gargoyles at a time... but because the baal-rog will fairly reliably beat any given gargoyle (regardless of subtype) one-on-one, the gargoyles will do what the baal-rog says.

also... frankly, i suspect the baal-rog is going to out-think the gargoyles by quite a bit. and they also probably cheat shamelessly.

[Giant2005]

Daemonix (SoT 2) are included in the "sub-demon" category. Vyarnect (Psyscape) can be considered as well, but Psyscape is unclear if they are or not. Personally, I think Vyarnect fit the description and should be included.

Oh, the Daemonix - i really have to take some time to do a decent read about them, they are quite curious things, those dinossaurs of demonology.

Vyarnect? Never heard of those, have to check the Psyscape book when i can them. I'm guessing the pseudo-demons from PFRPG might count as sub-demons too, considering their origins. Anyway, thanks for the indication, i'll check them out.

Would like to see someday a list of the "demonic critters" from the books that are not tied to Hades or Dyval and how do they fit in the "subdemon/devilkin", "lesser demon/deevil", "greater demon/deevil". The "Minions of Darkness" of Land of Damned: Chaos Lands are one of the few cases where i remember clear information about some races.

As far as I can tell, Kevin created the whole "sub-demon" category on the fly, waaaaaay back in the day, so that he could have a group of creatures that are just "natural" enough so that they can take cybernetic implants (not usually possible with most True Supernatural Creatures or Creatures of Magic), but are still considered to be supernatural beings.

Probably just a "cool-sounding term/concept, so I'll adopt it as my own" sort of thing.

I agree. There has always been a problem with the whole supernatural/creature of magic/demon/sub-demon/demigod categories. They seem to change all the time and have no rhyme or reason other than abruptly Palladium decides they are one. Especially problematic because they often times don't list specifically what they are for new R.C.Cs/monsters/D-Bees. It wasn't so bad at first, but now it seems everything has supernatural strength and endurance, with or without being supernatural. I think my favorite "huh?" is dragons, giant supernaturally strong fantasy creatures that totally aren't supernatural because they are "creatures of magic". Where this gets really annoying is when you have Supernatural or Evil sensing abilities, it's hard to know what qualifies. I never understood the whole sub-demon thing anyway. A Baal-rog is a Greater Demon but only has bit more strength and M.D.C as a regular Gargoyle(Lord is about equal) and about as much magic as a Gargoyle Mage. Okay, one on one, they have the advantage, but there is literally hundreds of thousands of Gargoyles to each Baal-rog. Do the math and Hades should be run by Gargoyles.

You have pretty much described every society in the history of man.
The collective strength of the weak always adds up to more than the collective strength of those in power.
The only reason they keep that power is due to fear. It would take a revolution of unprecedented size to unite those Gargoyles to take over and raising that kind of force isn't overly possible without being noticed and shut down.

[SolCannibal]

I like your idea SolCannibal, that might make things more interesting in the Minion War. Although if you did that it might be hard to explain why Triax has been having such a hard time with them

Not exactly - they would still be the major threat they are supposed to be, due to their combination of physical power, numbers in the millions and limited but combined use of magic, technology and psionics.

But now i don't have to ask myself how can the NGR to stand to a horde of beings where your average grunt is a near match to the average godling and numbering in the millions without being ran over.

[Hystrix]

I can go with that reasoning for the Vampire Kingdoms or something, but rank and power on Hades is constantly determined through violence and strength, and it seems odd to me that a Gargoyle Lord couldn't thump a Baal-rog one on one at least sometimes. I don't disagree they are craftier, but not that much(Baal-rog I.Q 2D6+8, Mage 2D6+6, Lord 2D6+5). A Rakasha? Sure they are badass. I think my problem more stems from the fact that I always thought (blame Tolkien) that Baal-rogs should have way better stats than they do. It would be easier to imagine them as a greater demon if they couldn't be bested by anyone with a decent set of powers from Heroes Unlimited, or a Power Armor. You're right that on Hades they have been slave class so long it's probably ingrained, but why would that still apply anywhere else, like Gargoyle Empire or Atlantis or China or Russia? A handful of Gargoyles would stomp a Baal-rog into the ground, which seems more in keeping with their gang like might makes right ideal. But that's me.

I like your idea SolCannibal, that might make things more interesting in the Minion War. Although if you did that it might be hard to explain why Triax has been having such a hard time with them

There are reasons that Greater deamon are greater. One facor you aren't considering is fear. No Gargoyal (not a single one) thinks "I have more MDC than that other demon." They just don't. How could they?

Think of it this way: There are CS Grunts (or hey, even Juicers and Borgs) that are stronger than thier superior officer. But you don't see the CS army falling apart because some junior enlisted are tougher than their seniors. Even if a Gargoyal (or Gargoyal Lord) thinks they could take a Baal-Rog out one on one (which I doubt they can) they might be thinking about reprisals as well. Because the Greater Demon has minions that won't take kindly to a Sub-Demon attacking thier lord.

There is more to being a boss than the "I have more MDC rule."

[Hystrix]

I can go with that reasoning for the Vampire Kingdoms or something, but rank and power on Hades is constantly determined through violence and strength, and it seems odd to me that a Gargoyle Lord couldn't thump a Baal-rog one on one at least sometimes. I don't disagree they are craftier, but not that much(Baal-rog I.Q 2D6+8, Mage 2D6+6, Lord 2D6+5). A Rakasha? Sure they are badass. I think my problem more stems from the fact that I always thought (blame Tolkien) that Baal-rogs should have way better stats than they do. It would be easier to imagine them as a greater demon if they couldn't be bested by anyone with a decent set of powers from Heroes Unlimited, or a Power Armor. You're right that on Hades they have been slave class so long it's probably ingrained, but why would that still apply anywhere else, like Gargoyle Empire or Atlantis or China or Russia? A handful of Gargoyles would stomp a Baal-rog into the ground, which seems more in keeping with their gang like might makes right ideal. But that's me.

I like your idea SolCannibal, that might make things more interesting in the Minion War. Although if you did that it might be hard to explain why Triax has been having such a hard time with them

There are reasons that Greater deamon are greater. One facor you aren't considering is fear. No Gargoyal (not a single one) thinks "I have more MDC than that other demon." They just don't. How could they?

Think of it this way: There are CS Grunts (or hey, even Juicers and Borgs) that are stronger than thier superior officer. But you don't see the CS army falling apart because some junior enlisted are tougher than their seniors. Even if a Gargoyal (or Gargoyal Lord) thinks they could take a Baal-Rog out one on one (which I doubt they can) they might be thinking about reprisals as well. Because the Greater Demon has minions that won't take kindly to a Sub-Demon attacking thier lord.

There is more to being a boss than the "I have more MDC rule."

CS officers don't torture you for fun when they are bored and treat you like a slave(not usually anyway). I would agree though the rest of the minions would have a vested interest in making sure the Gargoyles didn't realize how strong they were, don't want to go down a few rings on the ladder. I still have a problem with how weak Baal-rogs are in comparison to the other Greater Demons, like Brek-Shall, Demon Locusts, Rakasha, Magots and Jinn. Maybe weak is the wrong word, just unimpressive. You could have just as easily have switched the material so that Baal-rogs were the slave race and Gargoyles the Greater Demons and no one would notice.

I think you need to re-read the section on Baal Rogs. Again, you have to look at more than just MDC...

MDC is equal or better than Gargoyals (Baal-Rog have 300-800 MDC, Gargoyals have 200-700)
Physcial Attributes are higher (Baal-Rogs can have a PS of up to 40)
Magic and Natural abilities- Decent magic, better than any minor demons, hands down better than Gargoyals (even better than Gargoyal Mages).
Plus they are smarter, and have more political pull. Yeah, you may be the obly one scratching your head on why Baal-Rog are greater demons. It's no mystery to me.

As for other Greater Demons -
Demon Locust, Raksashas, and Jinn ARE better. They are supposed to be. There supperiority takes nothing away from Baal-Rogs.
Brek-Shall are not better than Baal-Rogs. Maybe close physically, but not even close in the IQ or magic departments.
Magots are better than any greater demon in the MDC department, and that's about it. They are dumb as bricks and have nothing outside of brute strength.

Also, remember that Baal-Rogs outnumber most other greater demons.

[Giant2005]

If a Baalrog has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes minutes.
If a Gargoyle has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes hours.

The suffering of a Gargoyle lasts much longer than that of a Baalrog and they both know it.

[cornholioprime]

If a Baalrog has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes minutes.
If a Gargoyle has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes hours.

The suffering of a Gargoyle lasts much longer than that of a Baalrog and they both know it.

Also, the Gargoyle almost certainly knows that even if he manages to best said Baal-Rog, not only will that Gargoyle endure a near-eternity of torment from that Baal-Rog's fellows.......but that particular Baal-Rog will be back someday.

[Hystrix]

If a Baalrog has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes minutes.
If a Gargoyle has been beat to an inch of his life, his recovery takes hours.

The suffering of a Gargoyle lasts much longer than that of a Baalrog and they both know it.

Also, the Gargoyle almost certainly knows that even if he manages to best said Baal-Rog, not only will that Gargoyle endure a near-eternity of torment from that Baal-Rog's fellows.......but that particular Baal-Rog will be back someday.

Yep. The list goes on and on for why Baal-Rog are "greater" and why Gargoyles are "sub."

[SolCannibal]

It feels like "sub-demon" as a term evolved from the "A Demon from the Rifts" subtitle that so freqüently accompanied the name of monsters races when newly presented in the early books.

When one thinks of the background of the Gargoyles of Hades - a horde of beings coming from who knows what place through a mostly random Rift - they should be slaves, pure and simple. But unlike hundreds of other beings in that damned place, these lesser supernatural creatures showed potential for Slave Master material AS A RACE, not to mention possible rogue groups hiding in what passes for wilds in the Dimension. They THRIVED in hell, and recognition of this peculiar fact called for a peculiar definition, later adopted by those that dealt with demons and from them by those who practiced magic or dealt with the supernatural.

Just my thoughts on the matter of Gargoyles, who might be said, ARE the sub-demons per excellence.

The matter of the gargoyle sub-races power level in relation to demonic races is a whole other animal, though a far from insignificant one.

As a mostly unrelated subject, is anything said of what happened with the Daemonix with Tolkeen's destruction? I'm curious about how badly or not would they adapt to the loss of their source of "miraculous" TW-implants.

[Tor]

One notable mention would be the sub-devils (or "Sub-Deevils") in the Hell (Dyval) sourcebook. Hel is trying to get them to be her minions before they are 'promoted' to full devils.

Presumably this might mean that even Gargoyles might be promoted some day?

[SolCannibal]

One notable mention would be the sub-devils (or "Sub-Deevils") in the Hell (Dyval) sourcebook. Hel is trying to get them to be her minions before they are 'promoted' to full devils.

Presumably this might mean that even Gargoyles might be promoted some day?

Oh yeah, the Cryxon and Stalkers competing for Hel's approval and elevation. The really fun part is that even though the text admits Hel is just holding a carrot but cares nothing for their survival or destruction, they do give some information on how elevation to lesser deevils might affect them.

Does anyone know if the book tells how could it be done? AFAIK, the demons of Hades seem not to elevate other races, but from time to time a group of Fallen will evolve into something like an actual race and be promoted in time, Demon Bats being one example i remember out of my head but not the only one.

[Daniel Stoker]

As far as I can tell, Kevin created the whole "sub-demon" category on the fly, waaaaaay back in the day, so that he could have a group of creatures that are just "natural" enough so that they can take cybernetic implants (not usually possible with most True Supernatural Creatures or Creatures of Magic), but are still considered to be supernatural beings.

Probably just a "cool-sounding term/concept, so I'll adopt it as my own" sort of thing.

If I'm not mistaken weren't Gargoyles listed as sub-demons back when they first came about in Palladium Fantasy?


Daniel Stoker

[Hystrix]

As far as I can tell, Kevin created the whole "sub-demon" category on the fly, waaaaaay back in the day, so that he could have a group of creatures that are just "natural" enough so that they can take cybernetic implants (not usually possible with most True Supernatural Creatures or Creatures of Magic), but are still considered to be supernatural beings.

Probably just a "cool-sounding term/concept, so I'll adopt it as my own" sort of thing.

If I'm not mistaken weren't Gargoyles listed as sub-demons back when they first came about in Palladium Fantasy?


Daniel Stoker

Correct. The original Palladium Fantasy listed them as Sub-Demons about 10 years before Rifts was even a game.

[glitterboy2098]

One notable mention would be the sub-devils (or "Sub-Deevils") in the Hell (Dyval) sourcebook. Hel is trying to get them to be her minions before they are 'promoted' to full devils.

Presumably this might mean that even Gargoyles might be promoted some day?

Oh yeah, the Cryxon and Stalkers competing for Hel's approval and elevation. The really fun part is that even though the text admits Hel is just holding a carrot but cares nothing for their survival or destruction, they do give some information on how elevation to lesser deevils might affect them.

Does anyone know if the book tells how could it be done? AFAIK, the demons of Hades seem not to elevate other races, but from time to time a group of Fallen will evolve into something like an actual race and be promoted in time, Demon Bats being one example i remember out of my head but not the only one.

i don't think that the classifications (sub-, lesser, greater) are racial classifications so much as social standings or ranks. greater demons rank higher as a species in the Hades social standings than lesser demons, and sub-demons are second-class citizens, only higher than the non-demon slaves in the social standings. these social standings would be a combination of internal politics (which demon lord(s) they follow, where those lords stand relative to the others, etc), and on biological factors (creatures of magic are not likely to rise high in the ranks due to their relative mortality and generally weaker abilities, for example.)

[SolCannibal]

One notable mention would be the sub-devils (or "Sub-Deevils") in the Hell (Dyval) sourcebook. Hel is trying to get them to be her minions before they are 'promoted' to full devils.

Presumably this might mean that even Gargoyles might be promoted some day?

Oh yeah, the Cryxon and Stalkers competing for Hel's approval and elevation. The really fun part is that even though the text admits Hel is just holding a carrot but cares nothing for their survival or destruction, they do give some information on how elevation to lesser deevils might affect them.

Does anyone know if the book tells how could it be done? AFAIK, the demons of Hades seem not to elevate other races, but from time to time a group of Fallen will evolve into something like an actual race and be promoted in time, Demon Bats being one example i remember out of my head but not the only one.

i don't think that the classifications (sub-, lesser, greater) are racial classifications so much as social standings or ranks. greater demons rank higher as a species in the Hades social standings than lesser demons, and sub-demons are second-class citizens, only higher than the non-demon slaves in the social standings. these social standings would be a combination of internal politics (which demon lord(s) they follow, where those lords stand relative to the others, etc), and on biological factors (creatures of magic are not likely to rise high in the ranks due to their relative mortality and generally weaker abilities, for example.)

There's certainly a social standing element but no, it ain't just that, as members of the Deevil Host like Crixons and Stalkers are not actually capable of rebirth as actual demons & deevils - but that if their ever get promoted to lesser deevils, they will. And i'm speaking of actual R.C.C. information that implies Hel's promise is not just talk. Beside the fact it's off-handedly mentioned a reason Ice Demon Wraiths have some loyalty toward Rhada was her promotion of the race and grant of immortality toward them. There are other things - spell and artifacts mechanics included - in a number of books to imply there's more to it than just status.

My curiosity about the actual mechanics of transforming some creature of magic in an actual demon/deevil or somesuch is what motivated the question in the previous post. Someone turning Gargoyles in actual demons or a number of other crazy things could make for some quite interesting plot.

[Mercdog]

Just something I noticed,

The Croval race in Lands of the Damned are considered to be lesser demons, even though they are not immortal (nor even particularly long lived). They do, however, have quite a few special resistances, and the natural ability of Dimensional Teleport.

There don't seem to really be any truly unifying factors in what constitutes a 'sub'-demon, but I would suggest one of them would be that sub-demons cannot travel interdimensionally under their own power. They require another party to open a rift for them.

Of course, without comparing the stats of each demonic being from sub to lesser to greater, I don't know how valid this theoretical determining factor would be.

[mobuttu]

As I understand, and according to the gargoyles description in SB3 Dark Conversions, the "sub-" category is related more on a hierarchic issue and servitude than to its raw power or capacities (although usually in the demon society they are both related to each other). So, for instance, Triax gargoyles would pass from sub-demons to lesser demons once they get a kingdom for there own.

[cornholioprime]

As I understand, and according to the gargoyles description in SB3 Dark Conversions, the "sub-" category is related more on a hierarchic issue and servitude than to its raw power or capacities (although usually in the demon society they are both related to each other). So, for instance, Triax gargoyles would pass from sub-demons to lesser demons once they get a kingdom for there own.

The only problem with that assessment?


IIRC, not even the lowly Worms of Taut -some of them barely sentient -are called "sub-demons."

[SolCannibal]

Simply put, one's identification in the Infernal hierarchies, Hades, Dyval and possibly others, involves a mix social status and overall (expected) power, though the relative weight of each can change depending on circunstances of what there are a number of examples in the Hades and Dyval books both, with Hades "fallen" category for demons, that is a catch-all for demons of too varied or unpredictable qualities to define a race by Hades standards, no matter if lesser or greater in power level, Death demons and Taursis being the clearest examples, though a number of unique escaped experiments of Succor-Bemoth fit too.

Ba'Zal, who went from Greater demon to Fallen to Demon Prince is a great example of how much one's condition may change due to personal experience. Abrasax, demon lord and patron of the Shedim - and who looks quite like one - might be seen as an even more noteworthy example.

[mobuttu]

i don't think that the classifications (sub-, lesser, greater) are racial classifications so much as social standings or ranks. greater demons rank higher as a species in the Hades social standings than lesser demons, and sub-demons are second-class citizens, only higher than the non-demon slaves in the social standings. these social standings would be a combination of internal politics (which demon lord(s) they follow, where those lords stand relative to the others, etc), and on biological factors (creatures of magic are not likely to rise high in the ranks due to their relative mortality and generally weaker abilities, for example.)

I agree with that!

[mobuttu]

IIRC, not even the lowly Worms of Taut -some of them barely sentient -are called "sub-demons."

According to CB1 Worms of Taut aren't real demons. But I get what you say...maybe (I bold it because it's a purely speculative theory on my behalf*), there are so (very) lesser-demons that they don't even fit on the demon society. While sub-demons are at the end of the hierarchy ladder, there are others demons that can be just considered "animals" and outside their society while still considered "real" demons.

*Bear in mind I haven't read the Minion Wars books, yet.

[mobuttu]

Like most sub-demons, they lack true mystic might and a grasp of magic, which puts them at the bottom of the demonic hierarchy as slaves, workhorses and lap dogs for smaller and crueler, but more magically potent true demons.

This paragraph of Coalition Wars 2 seems to second the idea that sub-demons are those creatures at the low end of demonic hierarchy: usually by the lack of magic powers, feature that gargoyles (except some specific ones), brodkills and daemonix seem to share.

[cornholioprime]

Based on the information found in Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades, as well as other sources, it seems that Sub-Demons are classified as follows:

1. They may or may not actually be "native" to Hades (for example, no one knows where Brodkil actually hail from).
   
2. They may or may not individually have powers and abilities that are greater than that of Lesser Demons, but as a whole "species," they are weaker than even lesser demons (for example, the Gargoyle Mage/Lord is individually more powerful than a great many Lesser Demons).
   
3. They may or may not actually be True Supernatural creatures themselves -while the Brodkil, the Daermonix, and the Gargoyles are just "normal" enough to get implants and even be genetically mutated, there is no hard and fast rule that says that they have to be this way (especially given the millions-year-old age of the Palladium Dimension and Hades, which of course precedes both cybernetic technology and genetics technology in most of the Palladium Megaverse).
   
4. They absolutely do NOT share the True Demons' capability of 'conditional immortality;' presumably, once they do, they would and should be re-classified as Lesser Demons.
   
5. There is nothing in the texts that restricts so-called Sub-Demons to being Daemonix, Brodkil, or Gargoyles -in future books, new types of sub-demon could be "discovered" at any time.
   
6. The creatures in Dyval such as the Cryxon and Dyval Stalkers could indeed be technically classified as "Sub-Deevils" based on the same criteria; of course, the term doesn't officially exist yet.

[mobuttu]

[*]They absolutely do NOT share the True Demons' capability of 'conditional immortality;' presumably, once they do, they would and should be re-classified as Lesser Demons.

I think that's no absolutely true (at least for Hades gargoyles) as they can be reborn through "the host mother" process (pg. 20-21 DB10 Hades). That seems to imply that Hades gargoyles do return to Hades when they die outside it.

[cornholioprime]

[*]They absolutely do NOT share the True Demons' capability of 'conditional immortality;' presumably, once they do, they would and should be re-classified as Lesser Demons.

I think that's no absolutely true (at least for Hades gargoyles) as they can be reborn through "the host mother" process (pg. 20-21 DB10 Hades). That seems to imply that Hades gargoyles do return to Hades when they die outside it.

VERY good find.

Based on what we can find about Gargoyles everywhere else.......it just might be that Carl Gleba has made an error (unless there is some sort of implantation process for Gargoyle eggs).

Note that there is a Rebirth Gestation Period for everyone on that page EXCEPT the sub-demons.

Again, VERY good find on your part....and now I'll have to PM Carl Gleba so that we can get his word on this; it really seems like an error.

[mobuttu]

and now I'll have to PM Carl Gleba so that we can get his word on this; it really seems like an error.

Agreed! Let us know what he says. Thanks!

[SolCannibal]

A weird thought that has crossed my mind right now is if Gargoyles and Brodkill might be able to use TW-bionics of a similar sort to those of the Daemonix. Truth be told, i doubt it as even the lowest of the daemonix, the Hangdog, has about 193-202 PPE, far more than the 20-80 of a Brodkill or 6-36 of a Gargoyle Lord. Even the Gargoyle Mage has around 30-180 PPE.

Still it makes for an interesting tweak/complication to throw in a game set in Europe.

[SolCannibal]

A weird thought that has crossed my mind right now is if Gargoyles and Brodkill might be able to use TW-bionics of a similar sort to those of the Daemonix. Truth be told, i doubt it as even the lowest of the daemonix, the Hangdog, has about 193-202 PPE, far more than the 20-80 of a Brodkill or 6-36 of a Gargoyle Lord. Even the Gargoyle Mage has around 30-180 PPE.

Still it makes for an interesting tweak/complication to throw in a game set in Europe.

I don't see why not. They have psionics and are able to have cybernetics/psynetics from Mindwerks.

There's that indeed, but then it might be that Brodkil and Gargoyles don't have much magic potential to lose, while the Daemonix (only beings so far on whom these TW-bionics seem to be effective, according to Coalition Overkill).

Godammit, the text actually says "It does not work on humans, D-Bees, Brodkil, Gargoyles or other supernatural beings. Bionics has the opposite effect on most beings, diminishing and blocking magic energy rather than releasing it in any usable way, shape or form. The Daemonix are truly unique."

That means that only beings with the Daemonix peculiar combination of high PPE, low bio-regeneration and limited magical powers might have use for those TW implants. As it stands the Gargoyle Mages might be the only ones presently capable of using them, but if something boosted the PPE of members of those races things might turn different. Baarrtk Krror's (of the Council of Twelve, he's in Final Siege) possession of a TW-bionic eye to replace the one he can't regenerate due to messed up regeneration sort of confirms this.

[SolCannibal]

With Psynetics the simple excuse would be that it evolved from an effort to get around exactly this problem, much like Coalition-related tech.

Momano Headhunter? where can one find them?

[Slight001]

Momano Headhunter is found in the Canada world book.

[SolCannibal]

Momano Headhunter is found in the Canada world book.

Thanks - got to check it out. For alternate ideas.

Edit: just checked them and well, things are somewhat .... convoluted, with some (positively uncommon, but still) psychic R.C.C.s making part of those specialized Headhunter ranks. The Mind Melter Momanos do suffer some loss of psychic capacity, but details on why only them, and overall effects/changes on the other R.C.C.s are lacking and sketchy, what is a shame indeed in my opinion. Some further exploration of such O.C.C./R.C.C. fusion/sinergy is something i bet lots of players and GMs could appreciate.

[SolCannibal]

Going back to the sub-demon subject - have been looking at Rifts England lately and it crossed my mind that the Dabuggh insect men could fit the bill nicely too, being a race of dominating, predatory monsters with a number of minor possibly supernatural features.

[Tor]

Most of the minion races in Nightbane are Sub Demons. they are not immortal until slain.

Which species in Nightbane are called sub-demons? Where?

[Tor]

I just reread these Races. Having trouble locating the 'Sub-Demon' phrase.

Closest I could find:
Namtar Hollow Men: Nightbane 167 "beneath their human construct lies a demonic insect"

Doesn't seem adequate, just phrasing. Humans can be 'demonic' too. Angelic ladies aren't Angels

I can't find the 5 letters 'demon' in any of the following. Help locating?
Vfrawk: TTGD 52
Living Chariot: Nightlands 109
Night Gaunts: assuming this is Gauntsteeds on Nightlands 116.
Waste Coyotes: Nightbane 168

Nightlands does have demon variants from Pg 133 onward but I can't figure why you've named the monsters you did as Sub-Demons. I can't find a supporting quote/label. If anyone knows, please help me locate it.

[Tor]

Rapp, you said "Most of the minion races in Nightbane are Sub Demons"

That claim is merely based on your assumptions then? No text support?

I've not read Dark Conversions so I'm only going on the basis that 'if it is called a sub-demon, it's a sub-demon'.

My question is not stupid, and you saying that is very rude.

The DC definition is also a little vague. For example: what is a 'monster'? Humans are sometimes called monsters.

Also, Brodkil and Gargoyles I believe are both supernatural beings and predators. 'Typically' is also clearly not a defining trait.

This definition you present seems to imply that the only clear criteria about as sub-demon is a lack of immortality.

[Tor]

I'm not nitpicking words, I'm pounting out that prior to however DC redefined things, stuff was only a sub-demon when it was named as one specifically.

I'm not going to buy the book just to read a snippet of how sub-demon is briefly redefined. I imagine it's fine to quote a short passage like that if you want to make an argument that things previously never referred to as sub-demons should now be considered some, in spite of having no relation to demons whatsoever.

[SolCannibal]

Well, part of the issue with sub-demons is exactly that we have quite few clearly ones, what to say of a clear definition. Going mostly by most of what has been said, good old CB1 has a bunch of creatures, specially in its BtS section - Banshee (even though SDC), Boschala, Dybbuk, Dimensional & Grave Ghouls, Dar'ota (Inccubus & Succubus), Gremlins, Mindolar, Sowki and Death Weaver Spider Demons - a bunch of monstrosities that seem like quite candidates for the "demonic critter/agent/minion but not really" conceptual terrain.

Death Weavers in particular caught my interest due to their high PPE (200-500) and apparent lack of bioregeneration, which might make them pretty good candidates for Daemonix-style TW cybernetic implants. Found in the Yucatan, South America, Africa, India, Asia, Malaysia, and parts of China (though i only remember mention of them in Vampire Kingdoms).

Some of the critters in the PF section, like Harpies and Kelpies, and the "demonic cannibals" from Rifts Africa might help buff the lines of "Subs" too. Sourcebooks and some of the earlier worldbooks might be the places to go for such i guess.


PS: Yes, total thread necromancy, bad i know, but making a whole new topic to post on the subject again when i was the one who started this felt worse, so here i came.

[Tor]

Triax gargoyles would pass from sub-demons to lesser demons once they get a kingdom for there own.

There is already a Gargoyle Empire which dwarves most kingdoms, they remain sub-demons, it takes more than that, like intervention from a demon-lord.

it's off-handedly mentioned a reason Ice Demon Wraiths have some loyalty toward Rhada was her promotion of the race and grant of immortality toward them

Someone turning Gargoyles in actual demons or a number of other crazy things could make for some quite interesting plot.

If anyone was going to get the promotion, assuming they are a distinct species, I think it would be the Gargoylites. They are weaker and more manageable, and more of the small-manipulator type that demons would value. Lords and Mages are a bit too intimidating already. Plus they seem to appear randomly as gargoyle aberrations, so I dunno if you could promote them distinctly from normal gargoyles.

Gurgoyles are perfect sub-demons, they can remain like that.

Yes, the fact the Gargoyles have better stats than lots of creatures in Rifts - damn, the typical gargoyle grunt is not much behind a godling in physical capabilities - has always bothered me as it really doesn't fit with "Orcs of the Megaverse" treatment they seem to get.

In fact their SCD versions are MUCH more modest, one of the reasons i'm tempted to adapt their SDC/Hit point totals as MDC instead in my Minion War game, kind of equaling them with the Host of Dyval and other critters.

There is one major trade-off between the versions. The MDC versions have great capacity but lousy regen. The SDC versions have great regen to compensate for the low capacity. I see them as closer matches to demons in SDC realms based on the per-melee regen. Regen is everything if you have the freedom to run, and many invisible-turning demons DO.

IMO, 'sub-demons' are largely creatures of magic with demonic looking features.

unlike true demons/deevils, whoch are supernatural beings (and thus more constructs of magic than biology)

sub-demons are just living creatures with special powers and evil appearance. unlike true demons, they don't just get banished to their home dimension when killed, but actually die

true demons and deevils use sub-demons as disposable auxiliaries and shock troops, since the sub-demon population can renew itself far faster than that of true-demons/deevils.

Pretty sure you need to be explicitly called a creature-of-magic to be considered one, I would not consider sub-demons to be CoMs, very exclusive category.

I think they actually are supernatural demons, just not higher-tier supernatural. The SB category was once very broad and did not have all those funny non-aging non-biological definitions Palladium added later.

As someone pointed out, the ones from Hades can reincarnate there when they die, other kinds in BtS or Rifts may have lost that though (or not gained it).

Considering we do not know how demons or devils are created, they are pretty much the only renewable demonic race since we actually know they can lay eggs and reproduce.

Although the new kind of Greater Demon, the Death Demon, is an utter game-changer here. I guess the Demon Knights would also qualify, since although they are not born they can be created from promoting lesser races (same as DeathDs).

Death Weavers in particular caught my interest due to their high PPE (200-500) and apparent lack of bioregeneration might make them pretty good candidates for Daemonix-style TW cybernetic implants. Found in the Yucatan, South America, Africa, India, Asia, Malaysia, and parts of China (though i only remember mention of them in Vampire Kingdoms).

I like necromancy! Death Weavers are explicitly called -Spider Demon- so I would consider them ABOVE a sub-demon. About the only question to answer is whether to consider them lesser or greater. I think goes beyond semantic phrase, the term appears without Spider in front of it too, in the phrase -on the magic saturated Earth the demons are MDC creatures-

Although on the low-side of damage capacity, their ridiculous amount of magical knowledge makes me want to class them as Greater. One of these in the hands of a Shifter master would be deadly, so I would prefer this wait until at least level 3 like a Locust or Raksasha minion would have to.

I can go with that reasoning for the Vampire Kingdoms or something, but rank and power on Hades is constantly determined through violence and strength, and it seems odd to me that a Gargoyle Lord couldn't thump a Baal-rog one on one at least sometimes.

A mage could cause trouble, they are versatile, but Lords are a bit too stagnant to be a sustained threat.

Although both a Gargoyle Lord and a Baal-rog can turn invisible at will, originally only the Baal-rog can naturally see the invisible. Gargoyle Lords do not even have the option of seeing the invisible as a psionic power, so unless they get a talisman or something to help them out (which a Baalrog could just nab) they were screwed here. They appear to be able to see the invisible on the PF2 world, but RiftsDB10 Hades removed the ability to see the invisible for both the Lord and the Mage. Lords at least retained their invisibility power, seems Mages got it taken away.

Perhaps invisibility-sight is something exclusive to the PF world, or maybe it just does not work in their home dimension as a weakness (kind of like how they can permanently die there, or how living nightmares are weaker in their place of birth) so they might retain invisibility-sight in other dimensions. CB1revised or CB3 or Beyond2 might answer that.

Baal-rogs are also on average faster fliers, which would allow them to easily put distance between them and take advantage of their superior bio-regen. Lord is average 60, Baal-rog is average 95. The fastest gargoyle lord is still slower than the average baal-rog. That is not even taking into account their halved flight speed if they want to exploit stone-form.

It would be easier to imagine them as a greater demon if they couldn't be bested by anyone with a decent set of powers from Heroes Unlimited, or a Power Armor.

The Baalrog has a lot of good tools for dealing with power-armor.

Short of a super-speedster with energy expulsion or a flier I am not sure which super-beings could plausible harass a Baalrog adequately. A perfect set, sure, but I think what is needed to beat a Baalrog goes beyond decent.

Baal-rogs can't use power armor or robots or M.O.M, which granted probably isn't going to matter on Hades(unless Mindwerks decides to open a store).

Pretty sure only gurgoyles have power armor and robots designed for them. If we are going to include MOM implants for Gargoyles then we may as well give Bio-wizardry to the Baal-rog. Greater Demons also probably have better gear and magical items available for their equipemnt than the average gargoyle, if we play the game of looking beyond the base stats. Not to mention mortal servants. I think it is on the sub-demon benefit side to only consider their base stats and not accessory tools.

A Magot would smash a Baal-rog. 10x M.D.C, can turn to mist, can turn the Baal-Rog to stone, and can't be hurt by fire(so fire magic is useless). If he gets close 10 bites will kill him.

This would probable end in a stalemate. I can`t see how a Magot would ever be able to get close enough to a Baal-rog, being land-bound. They are definitely fast guys (easy to forget) but would have to bring a Baal-rog down to earth. CB1 does not list a range for their eye-beams...nor does PF2...looks like DB10p95 finally did list it. As decent a range as that is, a Baal-rog can simply fly above it (pretty sure I read somewhere they have unlimited altitude and can fly into outer space, LOL). Short of finding bolders to drop on top of a magot or acquiring some magic dagger to throw which returns upon use (and it would need decent range) a Baalrog could not harass a Magot from that height though.

The ability to hold weapons with their hands is HUGE though, Baalrog are mentioned in CB1 as occasionally using particle beam rifles or railguns, the latter definitely has better range than the Magot eye-beam, and Magots lack the hands to operate or hold weapons like that.

Is kinda like how I probably could not punch a horse to death, it would trample me, but my hands allow me to use tools to dominate the horse if I have the intelligence, and Baalrogs do have that.

This obvious superiority you speak of eludes me. If a Gargoyle Lord, Gargoyle Mage or Gargoyle got into a fight with a Baal-Rog, the winner would be largely be down to luck with rolls. Is a Baal-rog going to spend half his melee attacks on a Fireball spell when he can be punched for 4 times that damage in the mean time? Or set a fire on the ground for something that flies? The combat will quickly turn to a slugfest, which yet again will be luck since they are so close

This is all you assuming that a Lord or Mage or generic Goyle will somehow be able to advance into melee range and maintain that range. Baalrogs fly faster and go invisible to avoid them whenever they want. At best they could only get a vague idea of where Baalrogs are via sense magic or sense evil. They would still be crippled in HtH if the Baalrog ever wanted it to come to that...

blah, was going by CB1 there, turns out PF2nd added `see the invisible` as powers for the Lord or Mage so they would be immune to that problem. Normal gargs still do not have that ability though, so this removes them as anti-Balrog candidates.

If he didn`t, the Baal-rog can just fly to the max range of his fireball (or whatever other fire elemental spells they want to attack with) and however slow magic used to be (has sped up a bit since then) still whittle the guys down faster than they can regen. In Rifts, anyway. Gargoyle regen is better in PF so it could outlast a Baalrog`s PPE.

[Subjugator]

One notable mention would be the sub-devils (or "Sub-Deevils") in the Hell (Dyval) sourcebook. Hel is trying to get them to be her minions before they are 'promoted' to full devils.

Presumably this might mean that even Gargoyles might be promoted some day?

Oh yeah, the Cryxon and Stalkers competing for Hel's approval and elevation. The really fun part is that even though the text admits Hel is just holding a carrot but cares nothing for their survival or destruction, they do give some information on how elevation to lesser deevils might affect them.

Does anyone know if the book tells how could it be done? AFAIK, the demons of Hades seem not to elevate other races, but from time to time a group of Fallen will evolve into something like an actual race and be promoted in time, Demon Bats being one example i remember out of my head but not the only one.

i don't think that the classifications (sub-, lesser, greater) are racial classifications so much as social standings or ranks. greater demons rank higher as a species in the Hades social standings than lesser demons, and sub-demons are second-class citizens, only higher than the non-demon slaves in the social standings. these social standings would be a combination of internal politics (which demon lord(s) they follow, where those lords stand relative to the others, etc), and on biological factors (creatures of magic are not likely to rise high in the ranks due to their relative mortality and generally weaker abilities, for example.)

Well, Gargoyles and Brodkil can become Maxi-Killers (Splugorth Juicers), in part because they are sub-demons.

/Sub

[SolCannibal]

Triax gargoyles would pass from sub-demons to lesser demons once they get a kingdom for there own.

There is already a Gargoyle Empire which dwarves most kingdoms, they remain sub-demons, it takes more than that, like intervention from a demon-lord.

Demons wouldn't recognize any of the Gargoyle races as equals unless forced by some circunstances - like somehow a big number of them ends up as vassals of Zerstrun's Empire (though i don't really see it happening - more probable that they might just move away or flip the Gargs the finger and go messing up stuff their merry way) - or some demon lord or other "promoting" them to full demon status due to some major bonus/edge it expects to get from doing such a thing.

That said, i think Modeus and his ilk might more easily promote some populous & "interesting" brand of Fallen or maybe bring a "foreign" or archaic demon race (Oni in Japan, any one or two of the "russian demons" races, Dibbuks, Dimensional Ghouls, Dar'ota or others with no clear homeplace) into their fold and realm, than spend any energy in actually empowering any servant races like Hel promised.

it's off-handedly mentioned a reason Ice Demon Wraiths have some loyalty toward Rhada was her promotion of the race and grant of immortality toward them

Someone turning Gargoyles in actual demons or a number of other crazy things could make for some quite interesting plot.

If anyone was going to get the promotion, assuming they are a distinct species, I think it would be the Gargoylites. They are weaker and more manageable, and more of the small-manipulator type that demons would value. Lords and Mages are a bit too intimidating already. Plus they seem to appear randomly as gargoyle aberrations, so I dunno if you could promote them distinctly from normal gargoyles.

Gurgoyles are perfect sub-demons, they can remain like that.

Well, the interesting thing is that an uplift does not exactly have to come from efficacious licking of demon/deevil lord's boots, quite the contrary in fact. Considering how close Gargoyle Mages are to Earth Warlocks in a number of ways, wouldn't it be feasible for a powerful/experienced one, or a coven of them, to actually summon an elemental intelligence to fuse/possess one of them or a lord whom they serve? What might such a powerful composite being next acts be, then?

Yes, the fact the Gargoyles have better stats than lots of creatures in Rifts - damn, the typical gargoyle grunt is not much behind a godling in physical capabilities - has always bothered me as it really doesn't fit with "Orcs of the Megaverse" treatment they seem to get.

In fact their SCD versions are MUCH more modest, one of the reasons i'm tempted to adapt their SDC/Hit point totals as MDC instead in my Minion War game, kind of equaling them with the Host of Dyval and other critters.

There is one major trade-off between the versions. The MDC versions have great capacity but lousy regen. The SDC versions have great regen to compensate for the low capacity. I see them as closer matches to demons in SDC realms based on the per-melee regen. Regen is everything if you have the freedom to run, and many invisible-turning demons DO.

Might go with a "worst of two worlds" arrangement for them, must check my books and notes when i get home - have to wait and see.

Death Weavers in particular caught my interest due to their high PPE (200-500) and apparent lack of bioregeneration might make them pretty good candidates for Daemonix-style TW cybernetic implants. Found in the Yucatan, South America, Africa, India, Asia, Malaysia, and parts of China (though i only remember mention of them in Vampire Kingdoms).

I like necromancy! Death Weavers are explicitly called -Spider Demon- so I would consider them ABOVE a sub-demon. About the only question to answer is whether to consider them lesser or greater. I think goes beyond semantic phrase, the term appears without Spider in front of it too, in the phrase -on the magic saturated Earth the demons are MDC creatures-

Although on the low-side of damage capacity, their ridiculous amount of magical knowledge makes me want to class them as Greater. One of these in the hands of a Shifter master would be deadly, so I would prefer this wait until at least level 3 like a Locust or Raksasha minion would have to.

Yes they are called demons, but so are Dybbuks (and possibly other things) in CB1, even though neither is immortal or gifted with some of the natural abilities commonly associated with such.

Their PPE IS pretty awesome indeed, but that might enter the same weird mechanic terrain as the Gargoyle races having close to greater demon-worthy MDC, even though they and Brodkill are THE basic sample subdemon races.

As an aside, the "south american indian tribe legend" (tribe's name gets censored, so i took it out) about Death Weavers sounds pretty much like the tale of Anansi and the Pot of Wisdom...

[Tor]

I just take that to mean not all demons are immortals, and there's never really a consistent natural ability they all have to have.

We are told a lot that sub-demons are not true demons so if something says demon I figure they are lesser or greater.

[Blue_Lion]

I am having trouble finding where in Dark Conversions it defines Sub Demon the only place I see the term used is in the write up for Gargoyles under lessor demons and it talking about Gargoyles from hades.

Perhaps I missed it can some one list page number so I can check facts?

[SolCannibal]

I just take that to mean not all demons are immortals, and there's never really a consistent natural ability they all have to have.

We are told a lot that sub-demons are not true demons so if something says demon I figure they are lesser or greater.

The matter is in what criteria define or not a true demon - or a non-demon - i guess.

Without their smarts and the magic knowledge that is strongly connected to it in their write-up, Spider Demons are little better (in fact worse in some ways) than beasts like Fury Beetles or Malignous.

[grandmaster z0b]

I do agree with the earlier assertion that Baal-rogs should be a bit more powerful to truly warrant the flavour text "one of the most feared and powerful of all the greater
demons". I personally would like to give them extra levels of fire elemental spells and/or magic weapons just to buff their damage output.

I recently had my group take one on and when I followed the text and got it to use a fire whip, it really wasn't very threatening. It could barely hit the PCs and when it did it didn't do huge damage. That was using the CB1 Baal-rog, not the updated one from Hades though.