Forums of the Megaverse®

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ESalter wrote:the "fusion-powered mecha" idea isn't related to "TRM" specifically

No, but it basically renders the whole point of Robotech to be moot.

I don't think I buy that.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:It further is at odds with the Tv series as has been repeatedly demonstrated.

But how is that an attack on "TRM" specifically?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ESalter wrote:I'm not sure how the notion of REF marines hurts "TRM" (but I know it didn't originate with Yune.)

From The Sentinels Script Book 2 -

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

The RPG1E regarded the military forces is each "part" of Robotech as completely separate. The novels regarded them as separate. The uRRG has always regarded them as separate. I thought they were separate, since well before Yune became continuity writer. I've rarely read anything by a fan that suggested she didn't think they were separate. Is there any other pre-Yune licensed product that didn't regard the military forces in each part of Robotech as completely separate?
Again, the idea that the REF is a separate force from the ASC did not originate with Tommy Yune.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:By removing The Army of the Southern Cross as the ground forces of the REF, Tommy can see to it that any future version of The Sentinels does not use any Southern Cross equipment. It has a decided affect on The Robotech Masters segment in terms of canon and most certainly in terms of visibility (the less visible something is, the more likely it is to be disregarded).

You make a good point, but I still have my doubts. IMO the dating in the Logan's RPG writeup suggests an attempt to chronologically position the mecha for use on the SDF-3; the uRRG entry has a much later date.

ESalter wrote:But how is that an attack on "TRM" specifically?

Well, it doesn't explain how the ASC supposedly lost to the Invid when the Invid could not detect their mecha via protoculture usage.

The RPG1E regarded the military forces is each "part" of Robotech as completely separate.

That's not the Tv series. The only terms that are used in the Tv series are the United Earth Forces (with United Earth Defense Forces, Robotech Defenders and Robotech Defense Forces being thrown in a few times).

The novels regarded them as separate.

As acknowledged even back then, they are NOT the Tv series and follow a series of different events. They are not canon.

The uRRG has always regarded them as separate.

The uRRG also has the Ikazuchi's with missile and point-defense armaments, which appear nowhere in the Tv series.

I thought they were separate, since well before Yune became continuity writer.

As has been demonstrated with the inclusion of the lines from the scripts for The Sentinels Tv series, you are wrong. If you could please point to ONE line of dialogue from the Tv series that states the REF is somehow separate from the UEF, it would be news to me.

I've rarely read anything by a fan that suggested she didn't think they were separate.

That doesn't make the statement true. People used to think the world was flat.

Is there any other pre-Yune licensed product that didn't regard the military forces in each part of Robotech as completely separate?

I've just provided the proof required. I'll even try to hunt up lines from Script Book 1 that show that the ASC = RDF/REF if it requires that.

Again, the idea that the REF is a separate force from the ASC did not originate with Tommy Yune.

I never said it did, but it still does not make it correct.

You make a good point, but I still have my doubts. IMO the dating in the Logan's RPG writeup suggests an attempt to chronologically position the mecha for use on the SDF-3; the uRRG entry has a much later date.

I am not discussing the uRRG's take on mecha chronology.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ESalter wrote:But how is that an attack on "TRM" specifically?

Well, it doesn't explain how the ASC supposedly lost to the Invid when the Invid could not detect their mecha via protoculture usage.

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ESalter wrote:The RPG1E regarded the military forces is each "part" of Robotech as completely separate.

That's not the Tv series. The only terms that are used in the Tv series are the United Earth Forces (with United Earth Defense Forces, Robotech Defenders and Robotech Defense Forces being thrown in a few times).

ESalter wrote:The novels regarded them as separate.

As acknowledged even back then, they are NOT the Tv series and follow a series of different events. They are not canon.

ESalter wrote:The uRRG has always regarded them as separate.

The uRRG also has the Ikazuchi's with missile and point-defense armaments, which appear nowhere in the Tv series.

ESalter wrote:I thought they were separate, since well before Yune became continuity writer.

As has been demonstrated with the inclusion of the lines from the scripts for The Sentinels Tv series, you are wrong. If you could please point to ONE line of dialogue from the Tv series that states the REF is somehow separate from the UEF, it would be news to me.

ESalter wrote:I've rarely read anything by a fan that suggested she didn't think they were separate.

That doesn't make the statement true. People used to think the world was flat.

ESalter wrote:Is there any other pre-Yune licensed product that didn't regard the military forces in each part of Robotech as completely separate?

I've just provided the proof required. I'll even try to hunt up lines from Script Book 1 that show that the ASC = RDF/REF if it requires that.

ESalter wrote:Again, the idea that the REF is a separate force from the ASC did not originate with Tommy Yune.

I never said it did, but it still does not make it correct.

But its correctness is irrelevant to my point. You said that Yune's separation of the ASC from the REF demonstrates his hostility to "TRM." But how can it when it's simply the most common take on the organization of Earth's forces?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ESalter wrote:You make a good point, but I still have my doubts. IMO the dating in the Logan's RPG writeup suggests an attempt to chronologically position the mecha for use on the SDF-3; the uRRG entry has a much later date.

I am not discussing the uRRG's take on mecha chronology.

My point is that the 2018-9 date is notable, and suggests the Logan's use with the REF.

From The Sentinels Script Book 2 -

Eps. #6 Hunter's Moon
Rick: I wish I could just order those troops back to base.
Breetai: What's stopping you?
Rick: Military protocol. When those troops are on the ground, they are under the direct jurisdiction of The Army of the Southern Cross. Edward's calls the shots.

actually, this would be a statement in support of a multiple branch structure. when units from multiple branches are involved in a single theatre, military protocol places the units involved under the command of the immediate regional superior, regardless of branch. in cases where multiple people could be the regional superior, and rank structure between branches makes things complicated, military protocol usually means command reverts to the highest ranking officer in the force with the majority of units involved. this is why you sometimes saw marine units taking orders from army commanders in vietnam, for example. commanders in that branch, outside the theatre, have little power to override in-theatre orders, except in extreme cases.

if the ASC and UEEF were all one branch, as you claim, rick would be well within military protocol to give orders to the units on the ground, as being an admiral, he'd be higher in the chain of command, and as commander of the entire military force, he is part of the official chain of command.

only in a multiple branch scenario, where the UEEF and ASC are seperate entities, would military protocol force rick to sit on his hands and let Edward's call all the shots on the ground.

glitterboy2098 wrote:if the ASC and UEEF were all one branch, as you claim

I never once stated they were the same branch. Furthermore, I've maintained that the REF is a multi-service combat command ala Central Command. To whit it is composed of at least 2 branches: Army & Air/Space Force.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:if the ASC and UEEF were all one branch, as you claim

I never once stated they were the same branch. Furthermore, I've maintained that the REF is a multi-service combat command ala Central Command. To whit it is composed of at least 2 branches: Army & Air/Space Force.

I gotta back him there not only on these boards has that been his stance but on others as well

unfortunately, this clashes with his claims that the REF falls under the jurisdiction of leonard.

leonard himself takes orders from individuals higher in command than him, as we see in the show. the problem with leonard being able to command the REF, like Rabid claims, is that if so, the REF and ASC would have to be the same branch, given that leonard refers to "joint cheifs" and takes their orders.

however, the Sentinels quote indicates the REF and ASC are totaly seperate branches.

so Rabid needs to choice. are they seperate branches, or does leonard get to command the REF? he can't have both with the known evidence. (evidence points to seperate branches, with leonard being fairly high up in the command of the ASC 'branch')

glitterboy2098 wrote:unfortunately, this clashes with his claims that the REF falls under the jurisdiction of leonard.

No it does not since, for one thing, Leonard isn't Supreme Commander yet. He's called General Leonard.

leonard himself takes orders from individuals higher in command than him, as we see in the show.

He takes orders from Prime Minister Wyatt Moran. I have never stated otherwise.

the problem with leonard being able to command the REF, like Rabid claims, is that if so, the REF and ASC would have to be the same branch, given that leonard refers to "joint cheifs" and takes their orders.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff do not give orders, IIRC. And again, the REF is a Combatant Command ala CentComm, not a Service Branch. Rick Hunter, as per Robotech Art 3, is a General of the Air Force of the REF (Robotech Expeditionary Air Force). Edward's is the Ground Forces Commander of the REF (Army of the Southern Cross). Lisa Hayes is in charge of all Space Operations and is an Admiral of the REF.

however, the Sentinels quote indicates the REF and ASC are totaly seperate branches.

The REF is not indicated as a Service Branch.

so Rabid needs to choice. are they seperate branches, or does leonard get to command the REF? he can't have both with the known evidence. (evidence points to seperate branches, with leonard being fairly high up in the command of the ASC 'branch')

Once again, this takes place before Leonard is elevated to Supreme Commander. We only know he has the rank of General. Furthermore, the REF is never said to be a Service Branch. Its composed of at least 2 branches: Air/Space Force & Army.