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Razzinold · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 8:12 pm

Ok I have a character looking for some arrows for his bow, he's looking for any that do MD Damage. I found some arrows in Rifts Sourcebook One and I am about to check Rifts Japan now that I am back home with my books.
Any other places the good people of the boards can suggest I look? Please keep in mind I would prefer he didn't have access to any rune or melienium tree weapons. I would allow some minor magic ones if they had cool effects, like that old computer game (Thief) that had moss arrows to quite your footsteps and water ones to wash away blood stains. I am not looking for conversions, I am looking for real arrows that exist in published Rifts books. Basically he's (and I) am looking for some basic arrows that do MD, and maybe some specialty(trick) arrows, like the flare one and such from Sourcebook One.
Thanks in advance.

Mack · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 9:31 pm

High Tech Arrowheads can be found on page 150 of the Game Master's Guide, but it might be just a reprint of what's in Sourcebook 1 (I didn't compare them).

Also, on page 154 of the GMG you'll find the NA-LB1 Laser Bow (a thoroughly ridiculous weapon) and the NA-SW4 MDC Bow (which requires supernatural strength).

Dr Megaverse · **Joined:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:17 am **Posts:** 436

Spirit West pg. 203. Available from either Bandito Arms or Native American Preserves.

EDIT Upon reading the page it directs you to SB 1 pg. 58...

boxee · **Joined:** Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm **Posts:** 1315

There are normal arrows everywhere, some hi-tech one, but I think you are looking at custom creations sorry buddy. You could try techno-wizard arrows. The fantasy setting has some possible ideas use summoner and diabolism classes to create some effects. Not sure if this help you out.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

TW Goblin Bombs (or Arrows) page 63 of Coalition Wars 01.

mobuttu · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 11:14 am

There are some other arrows in Dinosaur swamps WB26.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 1:14 pm

Spirit West Indian weapons section includes high tech arrows and bows.
There is the Tattoo archer in Splynn's D-Market
There is some magic Arrows in one of the Rifters (see the rifter index in the rifter forum)
The are normal arrows listed in the PF RPG main book.

Grell · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 1:18 pm

As far as magic arrows go you could just have ones that do their normal damage die as MD and have them cost 10 to 100 times more than their SD equivelants. Sort of 'entry level' magic weapons?

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 1:37 pm

Grell wrote:

As far as magic arrows go you could just have ones that do their normal damage die as MD and have them cost 10 to 100 times more than their SD equivalents. Sort of 'entry level' magic weapons?

Did you mean.. "..have them cost 10 to 100 times more than mundane arrows ."?
Mundane meaning non-magical.

Grell · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 1:39 pm

No; SD equivelants like an arrow that does 2d6 SD costs 15 credits, but a magical arrow that does 2d6 MD should cost between 150 and 1500 credits (GM discretion of course).

Edit: You could call them "mundane" arrows, but I'm not drawing a distinction between SD and mundane weapons in my example.

Razzinold · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 6:16 pm

Thanks for the help everyone, I will check out the books mentioned. I will probably end up using the arrows in Source Book One, like I said before I would rather he use normal arrows that do MD instead of having a bunch of magic arrows. He doesn't have supernatural strength so he can't use that one bow someone mentioned. To be honest I don't even know why he wants a bow, I guess it figures into some kind of cool character concept he is going to pitch to me. He is a Psi-Slayer on the run (from the Lonestar Complex) who is the sole survivor of his previous merc group.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 6:52 pm

Grell wrote:

No; SD equivalents like an arrow that does 2d6 SD costs 15 credits, but a magical arrow that does 2d6 MD should cost between 150 and 1500 credits (GM discretion of course).

Edit: You could call them "mundane" arrows, but I'm not drawing a distinction between SD and mundane weapons in my example.

thank you, you just said with this post "yes, I was talking about mundane arrows."

There are mundane weapons, the CS firebreather, that do MD. So I do make distinctions so there is no misunderstanding.

I'm thinking that the use of the word 'equivalents' was what I was seeing to be used incorrectly. 'Versions' would of been an excellent word choice.

Grell · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 8:05 pm

Razzinold wrote:

Thanks for the help everyone, I will check out the books mentioned. I will probably end up using the arrows in Source Book One, like I said before I would rather he use normal arrows that do MD instead of having a bunch of magic arrows. He doesn't have supernatural strength so he can't use that one bow someone mentioned. To be honest I don't even know why he wants a bow, I guess it figures into some kind of cool character concept he is going to pitch to me. He is a Psi-Slayer on the run (from the Lonestar Complex) who is the sole survivor of his previous merc group.

The bow seems like a weapon a Psi-Slayer would gravitate to; nice and silent with enough range to stay undetected. Besides, bows are pretty awesome.

Nightmask · **Joined:** Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am **Posts:** 10681

Grell wrote:

Razzinold wrote:

Thanks for the help everyone, I will check out the books mentioned. I will probably end up using the arrows in Source Book One, like I said before I would rather he use normal arrows that do MD instead of having a bunch of magic arrows. He doesn't have supernatural strength so he can't use that one bow someone mentioned. To be honest I don't even know why he wants a bow, I guess it figures into some kind of cool character concept he is going to pitch to me. He is a Psi-Slayer on the run (from the Lonestar Complex) who is the sole survivor of his previous merc group.

The bow seems like a weapon a Psi-Slayer would gravitate to; nice and silent with enough range to stay undetected. Besides, bows are pretty awesome.

Well until those MD explosive tips go off anyway. ;-)

I don't think anything other than techno-wizard or magical arrows are effective in doing MD in a fashion that wouldn't be noisy in some fashion.

Grell · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 8:29 pm

Yeah, the explosion is fine as long as it happens far away!

boxee · **Joined:** Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:24 pm **Posts:** 1315

In vampire kingdoms there is a psi-stalker that uses a bow.

TechnoGothic · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 9:23 pm

Magic Tattoo Bows & Arrows are perfect...

Otherwise the Spirit West Fetish Bows are useful if you can use magic weapons...

Dr Megaverse · **Joined:** Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:17 am **Posts:** 436

I've always liked bows. No need to recharge

. I especially like the Legendary Fetish Bows from Spirit West....is freakin awesome.

Lenwen · **Joined:** Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:16 pm **Posts:** 8289

Dr Megaverse wrote:

I've always liked bows. No need to recharge

. I especially like the Legendary Fetish Bows from Spirit West....is freakin awesome.

I find that I too .. am in love with bows ..

100% completely quite ..

No recharge ..

Silent death ..

Gotta love it !

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Plus being an Ancient weapon, bows get the PP bonus to strike and if you take Sharpshooting for bows you can get part of your PP bonus again.
Bows are the most accurate weapon in the game in trained hands.

Razzinold · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 6:23 pm

I have nothing against bows, heck in real life I used to target shoot with a compound bow, I do see their use in a game (hunting, people without armour) I just don't see how useful it's going to be for him unless it is a magic bow with magic arrows. If I remember it correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the arrow from Sourcebook Once only do 1MD ? That would not penetrate someone with a helmet, I know he wants some explosive tips for it, he already asked, and they range from 1d6 x 10 SD right up to 3d6 MD, but that wipes out it being silent

I'm pretty sure it's more of a "look" he is going for as opposed to the strategic value that a bow can offer someone. I know it says Psi-Stalkers and Wilderness Scouts like them, but he is a Psi-Slayer, is there much of a difference between the two ? I've never played one and don't happen to have my books in front of me.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 6:39 pm

there are also a few high tech bows in AU.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 7:36 pm

Razzinold wrote:

I have nothing against bows, heck in real life I used to target shoot with a compound bow, I do see their use in a game (hunting, people without armour) I just don't see how useful it's going to be for him unless it is a magic bow with magic arrows. If I remember it correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the arrow from Sourcebook Once only do 1MD ? That would not penetrate someone with a helmet, I know he wants some explosive tips for it, he already asked, and they range from 1d6 x 10 SD right up to 3d6 MD, but that wipes out it being silent

I'm pretty sure it's more of a "look" he is going for as opposed to the strategic value that a bow can offer someone. I know it says Psi-Stalkers and Wilderness Scouts like them, but he is a Psi-Slayer, is there much of a difference between the two ? I've never played one and don't happen to have my books in front of me.

It's not always about killing fully armored opponents.
If you're hunting for food in enemy territory, a bow is better than a rifle or a mega-damage weapon.
If you're trying to silence or subdue an enemy in non-environmental armor, a neural arrow has a decent chance of working.
If you're against vampires, arrows work just fine.
If you're against were-creatures, and you have silver-tipped arrows, you're well-armed.
If you need to get a message or a light cord someplace you can't reach, arrows can be handy.
If you need to tail somebody, an arrow with a tracer on it can be shot at the enemy (generally works better with vehicles or creatures with animal-level intelligence).

In combat, explosives work pretty well. Magic arrows work better, if you go by the book, but there's some other stuff you can do.
Naruni Plasma rounds, for example, work like shotgun shells; you just need a hard impact to set them off. It should be possible to attach a plasma round onto the end of an arrow in such a way that it goes off on impact, making for an effective plasma-arrow.
It'd be pricey, though, and the range would likely drop.

Grell · **Posted:** Wed May 18, 2011 8:29 pm

I really like that last idea. I agree on the range issue, but I think maybe it would be suited more towards ambush scenarios; preferably shooting from the high ground.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

How exactly does Archery work in Rifts?
It has it's own seperate rate of fire which effec tively is your number of attacks per melee with a bow. How does that integrate with the normal rules?

For example, if I had a character with 6 regular attacks and 4 by bow, he uses his bow for the entire melee. He gets 4 shots I believe but what happens if someone attacks him? Can he dodge twice and still have 4 shots with his bow? What happens if he dodges 3 times?

Another example, what if the character had 4 attacks per melee but 6 by bow. What happens if he dodges then?

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 1:05 am

first of all normally the char would have more bow attacks then h2h APM.

2nd normally the archery RoF attacks replace the h2h APM one to one.

If the attacker has gotten close enough that your char has to dodge, then the combat would change over to h2h melee.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

first of all normally the char would have more bow attacks then h2h APM.

This is the sort of thing I would like to know more about. Judging by the book, it looks to be the opposite of what you said.
At level one, the rate of fire with a bow is only two shots per melee which is less than the usual 4 of a Martial Artist. Also skills like boxing and any racial/occ bonus attacks must come into play.
How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?
How does an Archer manage to get more attacks than a h2h fighter like you suggested?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

2nd normally the archery RoF attacks replace the h2h APM one to one.

Not sure what you mean by this, are you saying in my example of 6 melee attacks and 4 RoF with a bow would mean 4 shots of a bow would use up 4 attacks and have 2 left over to do whatever with?
What if the RoF is actually higher with a bow than the number of attacks the character has?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

If the attacker has gotten close enough that your char has to dodge, then the combat would change over to h2h melee.

Are you saying that an archer cannot continue to use his bow in point blank range or that in melee range he would be using his melee attacks instead of archery rate of fire to determine his combat skills with a bow in melee?

Prysus · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 4:32 am

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

first of all normally the char would have more bow attacks then h2h APM.

This is the sort of thing I would like to know more about. Judging by the book, it looks to be the opposite of what you said.

Greetings and Salutations. There are variable factors here. For one, I'm thinking drewkitty ~..~ has his head stuck in PF where the Hand to Hand styles still mention only starting with two attacks. If a character only has 2 attacks per melee (APM), it will be very easy (and fast) for an archer to gain a higher rate of fire (ROF). Since this is Rifts, and the standard is clearly 4 APM, this isn't the case.

With that said, by high levels, an archer will still have a higher ROF. A typical character will have 7 APM (8 if they take boxing) by level 15 while the W.P. Archery skill gives you a ROF of 9. Also there are some classes that increase the ROF even faster, such as the Long Bowman (PF) which grants a ROF of 11 or the Samurai (Rifts Japan) which grants a total ROF of 10.

Giant2005 wrote:

At level one, the rate of fire with a bow is only two shots per melee which is less than the usual 4 of a Martial Artist. Also skills like boxing and any racial/occ bonus attacks must come into play.

Typically not. APM and ROF are different/separate. So what adds to one won't add to the other. Boxing adds APM, ergo this is not a ROF increase (unless stated otherwise). Very few abilities add to the ROF. One exception is the Elves write-up in Conversion Book One which grants a +1 to the ROF (even though this is total nonsense, especially since elves come from PF and they have no such bonus there).

Giant2005 wrote:

How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?
How does an Archer manage to get more attacks than a h2h fighter like you suggested?

See above.

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

2nd normally the archery RoF attacks replace the h2h APM one to one.

Not sure what you mean by this, are you saying in my example of 6 melee attacks and 4 RoF with a bow would mean 4 shots of a bow would use up 4 attacks and have 2 left over to do whatever with?
What if the RoF is actually higher with a bow than the number of attacks the character has?

I'll let drewkitty ~..~ answer what he meant, because while I can guess I'd only be guessing (and to the best of my knowledge there is no canon answer to this question).

Still, if you're curious to MY opinion on the matter then I'd suggest looking at Rifter 45. There is an article about archery there (titled: Of Bows & Arrows). In the article (on page 43) it talks about how to use ROF and APM in the same melee round. The section actually discusses when you have more APM than ROF, when they're equal, and when you have a higher ROF than APM. The article is written for PF, but should be applicable to any setting that's using archery. I highly recommend it (though I'll admit I'm biased).

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

If the attacker has gotten close enough that your char has to dodge, then the combat would change over to h2h melee.

Are you saying that an archer cannot continue to use his bow in point blank range or that in melee range he would be using his melee attacks instead of archery rate of fire to determine his combat skills with a bow in melee?

I have no clue what he means, especially since in Rifts there are a lot of reasons to dodge. A Ley Line Walker can cast a fire bolt at you from a hundred (or more) feet away. Just because I dodge I'm not going to throw a punch. Same if someone is trying to shoot at me (with gun or bow & arrow), or a psychic hurling TK objects at me. Of course, all these examples are also true in PF, though admittely the setting isn't as saturated with the options. Actually, this is an extremely odd line (to me) since in melee combat I'm far more likely to parry than dodge.

Anyways, the answer to your question is that your archer can use a bow and arrow in close combat if he wishes, but there are down sides to doing this. First, if you have a lower ROF than APM, then you'll be slower to attack and typically not wise. Second, in close quarters, many GM (I know I would) allow an opponent to parry ranged attacks (because you might not be able to parry the arrow but you CAN parry the arm holding the bow if they're that close). Third, once in close combat there are pobably better weapon options than a bow and arrow.

If the character still wanted to fire arrows in close quarters combat (high ROF, good strike bonuses, no other weapons, or he just thinks its cool) he'd continue using his ROF to attack, unless he was using his bow and arrow as blunt weapons instead of for archery (he'd definitely be using his APM for this, but that's more improvised weaponry).

Okay, I think that's all for now. Hopefully some of that helped and/or was insightful. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

ZorValachan · **Joined:** Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:57 am **Posts:** 521

Killer Cyborg wrote:

It's not always about killing fully armored opponents.
If you're hunting for food in enemy territory, a bow is better than a rifle or a mega-damage weapon.
If you're trying to silence or subdue an enemy in non-environmental armor, a neural arrow has a decent chance of working.
If you're against vampires, arrows work just fine.
If you're against were-creatures, and you have silver-tipped arrows, you're well-armed.
If you need to get a message or a light cord someplace you can't reach, arrows can be handy.
If you need to tail somebody, an arrow with a tracer on it can be shot at the enemy (generally works better with vehicles or creatures with animal-level intelligence).

In combat, explosives work pretty well. Magic arrows work better, if you go by the book, but there's some other stuff you can do.
Naruni Plasma rounds, for example, work like shotgun shells; you just need a hard impact to set them off. It should be possible to attach a plasma round onto the end of an arrow in such a way that it goes off on impact, making for an effective plasma-arrow.
It'd be pricey, though, and the range would likely drop.

Exactly, There are many instances when a bow is equal or better than a gun/M.D. weapon.
I had a player who was running a Mystic and chose to use a bow. Had a variety of M.D. and S.D.C. damage arrows. The party was protecting Tolkeen fugitives to Colorado in winter and they were running out of food. After the glitterboy splattered a deer, the party learned the value of the bow. In combat she used the explosive arrows and was better able to hide as very little noise/light was coming from her position. Later the dog boy of the party had his helmet off (detecting scents), when a dog sized spider (S.D.C.) dropped on his head. One guy almost used his M.D. rifle to kill it (which would have misted the dog boy's head as well). She was able to stop him and use a well placed arrow to kill it.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Thanks Prysus, that info was helpful and yes your opinion does count.
Very tempted to pick up Rifter 45 now simply for the Archery rules. Of course, this will have to take some more thinking as I am usually quite underwhelmed with the Rifters.

Prysus · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 12:51 pm

Giant2005 wrote:

Thanks Prysus, that info was helpful and yes your opinion does count.
Very tempted to pick up Rifter 45 now simply for the Archery rules. Of course, this will have to take some more thinking as I am usually quite underwhelmed with the Rifters.

Greetings and Salutations. The final decision is yours. Though if it helps you make your decision I can better give you an idea of what's in Rifter 45.

Another World of Zombies: Written by Josh Hilden and Josh Sanford. This is an expanded alternate setting for Dead Reign by the original authors. If you like Dead Reign or just like Zombies, this is a great article (okay, I've never read it as it's not my thing, but I've only heard great things). For most, this is the main reason to get the issue.

The Order of the Mystic Knights: Expanded universe to make Mystic Knights more playable. If you're interested in Mystic Knights, this could be a very useful article. Again, I've only read good reviews.

The Court of Tarot: A new group for BtS. If you don't play BtS (either edition), I'm not sure of its use. Though for those on the BtS forum it was well received (from what I've seen). The only complaint I've seen is that they wanted more (in a good way)!

Of Bows & Arrows: New O.C.C., specialized hand to hand styles for archers, new techniques designed solely for use by archers, expanded rules (including movement penalties, rules for evasive maneuvers, firing beyond effective range, benefit of shields, etc.), and the topic of APM vs. ROF in the same melee round. Generally well received, with the main complaint being that one of the O.C.C. is a great idea but not powerful enough. This is written for PF2, but should be applicable to any setting (so some adjustments may be required to bring it in line with R:UE, but shouldn't be too bad). The goal here was to make archery specialty and focus for player characters (and generally approved of by those who wanted such a thing). This article is highlighted by the magnificent art of Chuck Walton.

In the end, the decision is yours. I just wanted to give you a better idea of what is there to help you decide (for better or ill). I'll admit I'm biased (as I wrote the archery article), but I've done by best to give an honest review of the issue. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Shark_Force · **Joined:** Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm **Posts:** 6360

just thought i'd mention (apparently i'm a bit late to the party) but there are some magic arrows that the scathach druid can make (from the england book) iirc.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

You have convinced me - buying the PDF now (and by the way you can pat yourself on the back because it was the synopsis of the archery info that convinced me).

Razzinold · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 6:41 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Razzinold wrote:

I have nothing against bows, heck in real life I used to target shoot with a compound bow, I do see their use in a game (hunting, people without armour) I just don't see how useful it's going to be for him unless it is a magic bow with magic arrows. If I remember it correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the arrow from Sourcebook Once only do 1MD ? That would not penetrate someone with a helmet, I know he wants some explosive tips for it, he already asked, and they range from 1d6 x 10 SD right up to 3d6 MD, but that wipes out it being silent

I'm pretty sure it's more of a "look" he is going for as opposed to the strategic value that a bow can offer someone. I know it says Psi-Stalkers and Wilderness Scouts like them, but he is a Psi-Slayer, is there much of a difference between the two ? I've never played one and don't happen to have my books in front of me.

It's not always about killing fully armored opponents.
If you're hunting for food in enemy territory, a bow is better than a rifle or a mega-damage weapon.
If you're trying to silence or subdue an enemy in non-environmental armor, a neural arrow has a decent chance of working.
If you're against vampires, arrows work just fine.
If you're against were-creatures, and you have silver-tipped arrows, you're well-armed.
If you need to get a message or a light cord someplace you can't reach, arrows can be handy.
If you need to tail somebody, an arrow with a tracer on it can be shot at the enemy (generally works better with vehicles or creatures with animal-level intelligence).

In combat, explosives work pretty well. Magic arrows work better, if you go by the book, but there's some other stuff you can do.
Naruni Plasma rounds, for example, work like shotgun shells; you just need a hard impact to set them off. It should be possible to attach a plasma round onto the end of an arrow in such a way that it goes off on impact, making for an effective plasma-arrow.
It'd be pricey, though, and the range would likely drop.

Like I said before I can see the uses for a bow I mentioned that he could use it for hunting, and the explosive tips, but that negates the silence factor and it's just as easy to use a grenade or gun for a similar effect or a laser to maintain silence. I knew about the tracer arrow but where would I find the neural arrow, that one sounds cool ?
I like your idea about using it to pass a message, and using it to make a rope ladder instead of trying to throw a grapple hook. I'm not so sure about the plasma round, seems less hassle to just use the explosive ones found in the books. I figure I'll just sit down with the player, find him a decent bow and arrow set (make a nice mix of SDC & MDC, toss in one or two magic ones) and go from there. If he decides to use it against a suit of Power Armour then, hey it's his funeral! :lol:

Once again thanks for all the help everyone, I liked the parts where people mentioned the ROF and APM, that's something else I'll have to explain to the player. :ok:

Grell · **Posted:** Thu May 19, 2011 6:45 pm

You're welcome!

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Just thought I'd follow up and say that Rifter 45 really was a great read and well worth the $6 or whatever it costs.

Secondly, to actually make this post contribute to the OP's question: I found more magic arrows. The Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia makes some fairly mediocre ones.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 5:17 pm

Razzinold wrote:

I'm not so sure about the plasma round, seems less hassle to just use the explosive ones found in the books.

The 3d6 MD explosive arrows cost CR 900 each and would be easily available.
Making a 1d4x10 MD Plasma arrow from a Naruni Plasma Cartridge would cost slightly more than CR 40 each, and availability would depend on how common Naruni gear is in the game world.

So I guess it depends on what you mean by "less hassle."

Quote:

I figure I'll just sit down with the player, find him a decent bow and arrow set (make a nice mix of SDC & MDC, toss in one or two magic ones) and go from there. If he decides to use it against a suit of Power Armour then, hey it's his funeral! :lol:

I have an archer that can launch 17 attacks per melee for 1d4x10+11 MD per attack, for an average of 612 MD per melee.
Granted, he's got a lot of specialized gear, but I figured it might show you the potential damage that bows and arrows can do.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 5:24 pm

Giant2005 wrote:

Just thought I'd follow up and say that Rifter 45 really was a great read and well worth the $6 or whatever it costs.

Secondly, to actually make this post contribute to the OP's question: I found more magic arrows. The Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia makes some fairly mediocre ones.

The best magic arrows I know of are:
1. Cyclops Lightning Arrows from PFRPG (up to 1d6x10 MD).
2. An Alchemist enchanted arrow from PFRPG (damage depends on what you enchant it with)
3. The Enchant Weapon (Minor) spell can also be used to create magic arrows (48 per casting) that inflict 2x their normal SDC damage as mega-damage. For a long bow, this would be 4d6 MD, which isn't too shabby.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I have an archer that can launch 17 attacks per melee for 1d4x10+11 MD per attack, for an average of 612 MD per melee.
Granted, he's got a lot of specialized gear, but I figured it might show you the potential damage that bows and arrows can do.

How exactly are you doing that? I have been rumaging through my books trying to find ways to make an archer competitive and can't come up with those kind of results without getting more munchkinny than I am comfortable with ie using races/classes/equipment from 3 different settings plus a Rifter.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

Just thought I'd follow up and say that Rifter 45 really was a great read and well worth the $6 or whatever it costs.

Secondly, to actually make this post contribute to the OP's question: I found more magic arrows. The Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia makes some fairly mediocre ones.

The best magic arrows I know of are:
1. Cyclops Lightning Arrows from PFRPG (up to 1d6x10 MD).
2. An Alchemist enchanted arrow from PFRPG (damage depends on what you enchant it with)
3. The Enchant Weapon (Minor) spell can also be used to create magic arrows (48 per casting) that inflict 2x their normal SDC damage as mega-damage. For a long bow, this would be 4d6 MD, which isn't too shabby.

Those are really worthy additions to the list except for maybe the first one (I'd hate to get my hands on some of those arrows just to have everyone else in the party start using 4D6x10MD javellins). I specially like that last one, too many times have I read "Magic arrows" in the books and never really figured out what the hell it was referring to but now I am fairly convinced that the generic magic arrows referenced to so often are probably those resulting from that spell.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 7:14 pm

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

first of all normally the char would have more bow attacks then h2h APM.

This is the sort of thing I would like to know more about. Judging by the book, it looks to be the opposite of what you said.
At level one, the rate of fire with a bow is only two shots per melee which is less than the usual 4 of a Martial Artist. Also skills like boxing and any racial/occ bonus attacks must come into play.
How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?
How does an Archer manage to get more attacks than a h2h fighter like you suggested?

In settings that give 4 APM @L1
In a Non-'min-maxed' char, and after the lower levels, the number of Archery attacks are greater then the h2h APM.
In Setting that give 2 APM @ L1
Unless you have boxing the number of archery attacks is the same as the h2h APM. The Archery RoF goes up faster then the h2h gain APM.

Giant2005 wrote:

Also skills like boxing and any racial/occ bonus attacks must come into play.
How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?

Only those bonuses that specificly say they give bonus Archery attacks (such as the Elf archer bonus) will increase the number of Archery attacks. Outside of the level up bonuses.

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

2nd normally the archery RoF attacks replace the h2h APM one to one.

Not sure what you mean by this, are you saying in my example of 6 melee attacks and 4 RoF with a bow would mean 4 shots of a bow would use up 4 attacks and have 2 left over to do whatever with?
What if the RoF is actually higher with a bow than the number of attacks the character has?

'Normally' was used in this phasing to show there is no canon answer.

Giant2005 wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

If the attacker has gotten close enough that your char has to dodge, then the combat would change over to h2h melee.

Are you saying that an archer (...snip...) in melee range he would be using his melee attacks instead of archery ([edit:]bonuses) to determine his combat skills with a bow in melee?

Yes, except for parrying with the bow. This is added on top of the h2h parry.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Thanks for clarifying all that Drewkitty, although you are a little late - I already purchased the Rifter 45 that said most of what you just said

.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Fri May 20, 2011 7:23 pm

Was half asleep when posting to this the 1st time. So I had to make up for the incoherentness.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sat May 21, 2011 12:32 am

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?

Only those bonuses that specificly say they give bonus Archery attacks (such as the Elf archer bonus) will increase the number of Archery attacks. Outside of the level up bonuses.

It's not as clear as all that, unless you know of some rules somewhere that specifically state it.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sat May 21, 2011 1:25 am

Giant2005 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I have an archer that can launch 17 attacks per melee for 1d4x10+11 MD per attack, for an average of 612 MD per melee.
Granted, he's got a lot of specialized gear, but I figured it might show you the potential damage that bows and arrows can do.

How exactly are you doing that? I have been rumaging through my books trying to find ways to make an archer competitive and can't come up with those kind of results without getting more munchkinny than I am comfortable with ie using races/classes/equipment from 3 different settings plus a Rifter.

It's from a powerful campaign where we all have a crapload of powerful gear, a lot of which comes from the PFRPG dimension (where the party spent quite some time).
And, of course, some of it is stuff that could be nixed by GM interpretation of the rules, and probably some house rules mixed in.
AND, going by your response about the Cyclops Lightning Weapons, it's not likely to impress YOU personally, because a character with all those boosts could use pretty much any weapon with similar results.

It's been a long time since I've played the character, but I'll look over his sheet to try to reconstruct it:

-The character is a long bowman from PFRPG, 5th level. This gives him 6 attacks per melee with the long bow.
-Our group has ruled that the ROF for archers should be bumped up by 2, in order to compensate for the Two Attacks For Living, bringing him up to 8 attacks per melee.
-The character has a couple of magic items that temporarily grant him Fleet Feet, which doubles his attacks per melee, bringing it up to 16 attacks per melee.
-He has WP Sharpshooting with the long bow as well, which gives him +1 attack per melee with the long bow as long as that is the only weapon he is using, bringing it up to 17 attacks per melee.
-He also has Gauntlets of Quickhands, that add an extra attack per melee, which would bring it up to 18 attacks per melee.

Some people play that ONLY abilities/skills/effects that specifically mention increasing ROF actually affect ROF, but PFRPG p. 59 states:
Note: The long bow is exclusive to the Long Bowman and Ranger OCCs. Skilled archers who are NOT long bowmen can use the weapon but find it awkward, all bonuses to strike are half, and the rate of fire is equal to the archer's normal hand to hand attacks per melee (no bonus shots from the WP).
IF a group plays that bonus attacks from speed and other effects do not stack with ROF, then you end up with a situation where somebody who specializes in the long bow has a ROF of 2 at first level, but somebody who has zero special training with the weapon, who finds it "awkward" and who loses half their strike bonuses with the weapon, gets a ROF of 4-5 on average.
Which does not make any sense.
Also, there's the reference to "bonus shots from the WP." This indicates that the ROF of an archer is supposed to grant more attacks with the bow than they would normally have in melee combat, which certainly is not the case if you go strictly off of the listed ROF for the weapon.
It's a case where the letter of the law seems to go against the spirit of the law, and we ruled in favor of the spirit.

Now, this character is also 6'3", and has a PS of 31 (once all boosts and bonuses are added in), so the GM allowed him to use a Giant-Sized magic longbow ("Seeker"), increasing the base damage from 2d6 to 3d6 SDC.
His main weapon is a dwarven-forged arrow ("Destroyer") that he had created by alchemists, with the following features:
x2 damage from having Enchant Weapon (Minor) cast on it, in conjunction with a Permanence Ward.
+4 damage from being made by dwarves
+3 damage from being enchanted with Eternal Sharpness
+4 damage from being enchanted with Super Sharpness
+25% base damage from having permanent Power Weapon cast on it.

Looking over the sheet, I realize two things:
1. Power Weapon only targets melee weapons; it is illegal for me to have that on an arrow. My bad: the base damage should be 6d6, not 1d4x10.
2. I did not include the +4 damage bonus from being dwarven-made into the damage being doubled by the Enchant Weapon (Minor) spell, which would bump it things up from 6d6+11 to 6d6+15 MD, putting it pretty much right where I had it anyway, the two mistakes cancelling each other out.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Sat May 21, 2011 3:55 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

How does all of that effect archery though? Do Archers get bonus attacks from boxing and martial arts?

Only those bonuses that specificly say they give bonus Archery attacks (such as the Elf archer bonus) will increase the number of Archery attacks. Outside of the level up bonuses.

It's not as clear as all that, unless you know of some rules somewhere that specifically state it.

Let me change the statement.
There is no bonuses to the Archer RoF except for the Level up bonuses and where the race or class get a archery RoF bonus.
Skills and class h2h APM bonuses only go to the h2h's APM total.
Support for this is the rules saying that bouses go specificly to what they are said to go to.
example case: dodge bonuses only go towards the overall dodge bonus and auto dodge bonuses only go toward the overall auto-dodge bonus.

Prysus · **Posted:** Sat May 21, 2011 4:38 pm

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Some people play that ONLY abilities/skills/effects that specifically mention increasing ROF actually affect ROF, but PFRPG p. 59 states:
Note: The long bow is exclusive to the Long Bowman and Ranger OCCs. Skilled archers who are NOT long bowmen can use the weapon but find it awkward, all bonuses to strike are half, and the rate of fire is equal to the archer's normal hand to hand attacks per melee (no bonus shots from the WP).
IF a group plays that bonus attacks from speed and other effects do not stack with ROF, then you end up with a situation where somebody who specializes in the long bow has a ROF of 2 at first level, but somebody who has zero special training with the weapon, who finds it "awkward" and who loses half their strike bonuses with the weapon, gets a ROF of 4-5 on average.
Which does not make any sense.

Greetings and Salutations. I agree, for the most part. I've never liked that statement either. Still, with that said, your argument is based upon Rifts, even though you're quoting PF2. That is where there is a logic break down. In PF2, I don't believe you'll find any note of two attacks for living or two attacks for being a hero (if you do find it, let me know, but I don't know of it mentioned anywhere in the book). As per PF2 (as a stand alone book), characters start with 2 attacks per melee. This means APM and ROF are the SAME, and ROF will very quickly have "bonus shots." Now at first level (basically a rookie) there isn't much difference here (and the two will be equal unless we do get into the Boxing issue, but that's a constant complaint towards most Palladium settings). If you take only what is written in PF2, then the line suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Also, there's the reference to "bonus shots from the WP." This indicates that the ROF of an archer is supposed to grant more attacks with the bow than they would normally have in melee combat, which certainly is not the case if you go strictly off of the listed ROF for the weapon.
It's a case where the letter of the law seems to go against the spirit of the law, and we ruled in favor of the spirit.

See above.

Though, if you wanted to go strictly by the "bonus shots from WP" ONLY, then you'd have to figure ROF actually is added on top of APM (not instead of). So by counting ROF as a "bonus" then you'd have to figure that a character with APM 5 and a ROF 2 would be able to fire 7 arrows. That is how a bonus would actually work. Though, of course, this would go against the wording that the "Rate of Fire" is "Two shots at level one" (this latter quote is from page 83, Long Bowmen write-up, which is basically the same as the WP, except it added the word "shots"). This interpretation (while it holds some validity) I think would go more against the letter and spirit than the other way.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Prysus · **Posted:** Sat May 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Giant2005 wrote:

Just thought I'd follow up and say that Rifter 45 really was a great read and well worth the $6 or whatever it costs.

Greetings and Salutations. Why thank you very much, glad to hear it. That definitely was one of my better pieces of work (even if when I read it now I can see so many ways I could have made it better). Of course, if you like it you can always check out From Ruins to Runes (Rifter 52) which talks about Living Rune Weapons (and does include a rune bow) and the upcoming Rifter 0.1 (been submitted to Wayne and just waiting final production). Okay, this is mostly just a shameless plug.

Giant2005 wrote:

Secondly, to actually make this post contribute to the OP's question: I found more magic arrows. The Mystic Kuznya from Mystic Russia makes some fairly mediocre ones.

Okay, contributing to the original question. Yeah, definitely a difficult task. Rifts doesn't have much in the way of special arrows. Though Magic Weapons from PF2 (page 249-250) could work. Something like "Indestructible" (so the arrow doesn't break on impact or anything like that) and maybe "Returns to Wielder When Thrown" (so the arrow could return after being fired) could be nice. Now, as this is PF2, there is no MDC. Typically magic weapons inflict MD as a result of being magical, but I don't believe there are any official rules that state as much and would (ultimately) be a GM call. However, that could be an option to add to an arrow without going TW or Rune.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Giant2005 · **Joined:** Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:57 am **Posts:** 3409

Prysus wrote:

Okay, contributing to the original question. Yeah, definitely a difficult task. Rifts doesn't have much in the way of special arrows. Though Magic Weapons from PF2 (page 249-250) could work. Something like "Indestructible" (so the arrow doesn't break on impact or anything like that) and maybe "Returns to Wielder When Thrown" (so the arrow could return after being fired) could be nice. Now, as this is PF2, there is no MDC. Typically magic weapons inflict MD as a result of being magical, but I don't believe there are any official rules that state as much and would (ultimately) be a GM call. However, that could be an option to add to an arrow without going TW or Rune.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.[/justify]

I actually looked into PF for inspiration (don't think I'd actually use it though just to save another conversation with the GM

) anyway, something about those returning arrows confused me. How long exactly do they take to come back? I noticed teleporting arrows take a melee action to return, logically I would imagine teleporting arrows to return faster than those that simply fly back.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sun May 22, 2011 1:47 pm

Giant2005 wrote:

Prysus wrote:

Okay, contributing to the original question. Yeah, definitely a difficult task. Rifts doesn't have much in the way of special arrows. Though Magic Weapons from PF2 (page 249-250) could work. Something like "Indestructible" (so the arrow doesn't break on impact or anything like that) and maybe "Returns to Wielder When Thrown" (so the arrow could return after being fired) could be nice. Now, as this is PF2, there is no MDC. Typically magic weapons inflict MD as a result of being magical, but I don't believe there are any official rules that state as much and would (ultimately) be a GM call. However, that could be an option to add to an arrow without going TW or Rune.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.[/justify]

I actually looked into PF for inspiration (don't think I'd actually use it though just to save another conversation with the GM

) anyway, something about those returning arrows confused me. How long exactly do they take to come back? I noticed teleporting arrows take a melee action to return, logically I would imagine teleporting arrows to return faster than those that simply fly back.

I'm assuming that the "Teleport to Wielder" function requires some deliberate concentration, where the "Return When Thrown" feature is automatic.

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